[EN] Armchair Admirals, Operation Dynamo. The Evacuations from the fall of France
Operation Dynamo: Alliierte Evakuierung aus Dünkirchen nach dem Fall Frankreichs
![[EN] Armchair Admirals, Operation Dyn...](/static/thumb/video/workh3q8-480p.avif)
Die Evakuierung von Dünkirchen, Operation Dynamo, wurde durch den Fall Westeuropas notwendig. Alliierte Schwächen und deutsche Erfolge führten zur Einkesselung. Logistische Herausforderungen, Fehleinschätzungen und Luftangriffe prägten die Rettungsaktion, bei der über 338.000 Soldaten, darunter viele Franzosen, evakuiert wurden. Die Royal Navy und zivile Schiffe spielten eine entscheidende Rolle.
World of Warships
00:00:00
00:03:33 Hello, everyone. Apologies for the delay to the start of the stream. We were encountering some technical issues. That's the scene that I didn't want to bring up, where it's Giant Clark. Is this the one? Giant Clark!
00:03:48 Ja, ich bin Giant Clock. Und dann bin ich Giant Clock. Und dann bin ich Giant Clock. Und dann bin ich Giant Clock. Ja, so... Whatever a Giant Clock does. Oh, du bist.
Hintergrund der Operation Dynamo: Der Fall Westeuropas
00:04:09
00:04:09 But welcome everyone to this month's Armchair Admirals, where we will be discussing the topic of Operation Dynamo, more famously known as the evacuation from Dunkirk. So, like, obviously, to need to evacuate from somewhere, wherever that may be, something must have gone bad to begin with. What has gone bad in this case is the fall of Western Europe, or the falling of Western Europe, because...
00:04:36 During the entirety of the Dunkirk evacuation, particularly in British literature, it's kind of portrayed as that's the only bastion left. Where in actual fact, the bulk of the French army that's still combat operational is attempting to reform south of the River Somme, trying to defend what's the bulk of the country.
00:04:58 To be fair, the bulk of the English language literature also forgets the fact that Dunkirk is the last British withdrawal from France, because there is another one later on where we have to withdraw the Highlanders, and we deploy a division to try and help the French, and then we find that by the time they've been deployed, the French have already decided they're going to surrender, so we have to then withdraw again.
00:05:18 Basically, the whole thing is a massive mess of communication. And I ultimately blame it on the French governments of the 1920s and 30s who didn't buy decent radios. Yeah, I'm just going to say this now. In the nicest way, there is no French soldiers at the time fighting who are worthy of blame. There is no one. It's literally the idea of why would we buy our armed forces decent radios? They might decide to get rid of us. Yeah, I mean, this is the thing.
00:05:44 Es ist eigentlich eine Kombination von, wie Dr. Clark sagt, Lack of Decent Radios auf der French-Side und Anything Below-Divisional-Level. Das macht Coordination Below-Divisional-Level. Und dann, auf Divisional-Level. Wenn du bist, kannst du ein Radio-Set haben.
00:05:58 Ich denke, Sie sind sehr stolz da, dass die Divisional-Level hat decent radios. Ich habe gesagt, dass sie radios hatten. Ich habe gesagt, dass sie radios hatten. Ich habe nicht gesagt, dass sie decent waren. Die Frontline ist natürlich, wenn alles auf und du hast den Ende der Phoney War, du hast, wenn du, wenn du, wie gesagt, eine North-South-South-Line hast, du hast die Belgian Army auf der Extreme-North, dann die BEF.
00:06:23 And then the French, obviously occupying most of the Front, because they're the most numerous. And when proper hostilities open up, the first thing that happens is the BEF and the northern part of the French line advance into Belgium to join up with the Belgians. Unfortunately, thanks to various things, including German offensives through places where they thought tanks couldn't go, you end up with the...
00:06:52 French forces like the 7th Army and so forth to the south on the right flank of the BEF collapsing and being forced back some of the Belgian formations which haven't really mobilized particularly much because they're being mobilized quite late and ultimately are not particularly well equipped either they will get knocked back as well so the BEF and the immediately adjacent French forces are kind of left staring at each other going
00:07:21 We're left in a salient. This is not good. So they start getting ordered to make a fighting withdrawal, except that the collapse of the French forces to the south goes really, really quickly. And by the time they're back out of Belgium and into northern France proper, suddenly they're in a pocket because the Germans have gotten around behind them. Yeah, this is the thing. I mean, not only there is the whole...
Deutsche Erfolge und alliierte Schwächen im Westfeldzug
00:07:48
00:07:48 Tanks, where tanks are not expected to be, which is one factor for why the Germans are as successful as they are. But there's also the factor that A, they hit the French, which is the place where if a breakthrough is achieved, it is going to be the hardest to have the speed of response and decisiveness of action you would need to halt a breakthrough. Secondly, they get very lucky with their logistics.
00:08:16 push down roads that are abundant in sources of petroleum you can drive up to and pump into your tank shall we say yeah i mean so it's sort of the issue with like the whole
00:08:28 Because, as I said, the Belgians had, in the interwar period, left the Anglo-French defence coordination efforts. So the Belgians only rejoined that quite late. So there's a lot of... There's about four different plans that the BEF and the French have of how far into Belgium do they go? Which river do they try to dig into? And so when everything kicks off, because of issues with Allied aerial reconnaissance around...
00:08:57 The Ardennes Forest. It's like, there is an entire German army group coming through Belgium. Yeah. It's a diversion force of something like 30 divisions. This is two German, entire German armies. Yes, in Manstein's plan, they are not really a diversionary force, but they're definitely the force that is supposed to be identified first.
00:09:24 And the Allies respond accordingly, because the Allies are trying to fight World War I again in Belgium, not in France. That's a big thing the French are trying to avoid here, because of all the damage and destruction that was done. But then you have the three Panzer Corps of, I think, Rundstedt's Army Group, Army Group B, going through the Ardennes. They get very lucky with the roads, even though...
00:09:49 um, um, um, um, um,
00:10:14 which is one of the sort of vital lynch points, joints of the French front line, it's reinforced, it's fortified, and there are good French troops holding it, because it is one of the routes to invade France historically.
00:10:31 But essentially what happens in... I forget the German commander's name. He ends the war as like a Panzer Corps commander. But it's like... He's encountered with a ravine, a river, and bunkers. And because no one expects him to launch a direct assault straight at them, it works.
00:10:53 Ja. Und so, die Germans waren able zu get through, get through at Sedan. Die French response, even though they've planned and have plans to work out how to deal with such penetrations, you end up with some units pulling back that clash with units going forward. There's confusion, poor radio communications. When they try to send orders by dispatch rider on a motorbike, they get lost, they get...
00:11:19 They are late. And so eventually you end up in a situation where the Panzers have crossed at Sedan and are moving into France at exactly the time the French actually have several divisions worth of a counterattack force that is ready to attack. But because the commander doesn't quite know what's going on, he doesn't order the attack. And it's one of these, there's several points in the Battle of France where it's like, if an Allied response had been quicker,
00:11:47 The war would have ended then and there. Yeah, it's basically... Actually, on that front, can I just... This is going to sound like a humble brag, and I hate to interrupt Fleek, but this is the reality of what I want to give you. I once had this conversation with a TV producer who was looking at producing a Band of Brothers-like style program based around the fall of France. And the problem he mainly had was putting the script together...
00:12:15 und zu erklären, das ist das eigentlich was passiert. Er war nicht für Dramatik-Effekt. Weil sie sagen, das geht falsch und das geht falsch. Surely, du schaffst das auf. Nein, das ist das. Er hat es getan. Er hat es getan. Er hat es getan. Er hat es getan. Er hat es getan. Er hat es getan. Er hat es getan. Er hat es getan. Er hat es getan.
00:12:43 all the TV commissioners were saying you would have to suspend this belief so much because it's just that you can't have all these things keep going wrong you can't in reality have all these things going wrong and the trouble was that was what was happening so while these panzer divisions and motorized infantry divisions which is about I think in a German army of 110-ish divisions 8 of them are motorized or
00:13:09 und dann über 10 Panzer Divisions. Für all die Tork und den Blitzkrieg von Blitzkrieg haben, die meisten der Germanen Arme über die Welt gegangen sind. Ja. Ja, das ist eigentlich eine, die wir kommen zurück und bite uns ein bisschen, wenn wir zu Dunkerque kommen, weil es logistisch ist. Ja. Ja, das ist der große Myth von Dunkerque ist, natürlich, dass die Germans uns gehen lassen.
Logistische Herausforderungen und strategische Entscheidungen vor Dünkirchen
00:13:35
00:13:35 Aber die Realität ist, dass sie nicht aus dem Supply haben können, dass sie nichts über die Supply haben. Logistisch ist es auch sehr gut. Das Panzer Division war bereit zu crossen die Canal und drive straight at Dunkirk. Ja, aber bei diesem Zeitpunkt, die Panzer Division hat 50-60% der Panzers non-operational. Und sie waren sehr conscious, dass wenn sie die Panzer-Panzer-Panzer-Panzer-Panzer-Panzer-Panzer-Panzer-Panzer-Panzer-Panzer-Panzer-Panzer-Panzer-Panzer-Panzer-Panzer-Panzer-Panzer-Panzer-Panzer-Panzer.
00:14:04 This is the thing. You've got four factors here. You've got the spirit of the offensive within the Panzer Divisions, aka the desire to keep momentum going, not get bogged down, push the offensive constantly. You've got the luck that they had throughout the entire campaign, aka counterattacks that would have halted them not materialising. When logistics get strained, they happen across fuel dumps or they happen across petrol stations.
00:14:33 um then you've got the uh fact that for the german high command knows if they don't win here they don't win so there's that also driving them as well to make this operation a success and then finally you've got the fact that they basically can't wait any longer um if they wait until the campaign season in 41 belgium will have reorganized its military with the equipment it was going to get from britain and france
00:15:01 Die britischen und die französischen Fremden würden sozusagen eine Brickwall, die sie nicht durchführen können. Und wer weiß, was die russischen Fremden würde, bei dem Zeitpunkt. Ja. Und die französischen Fremden hat sogar noch ein paar radios, bei dem Zeitpunkt. Ja, die andere Dinge, die nicht helfen, die Situation ist, dass, wenn du eine Konferenz in Paris hast, über wie wir das deutsche Offensive machen,
00:15:27 The British and a good chunk of the French field commanders show up and...
00:15:36 Marshal Gamelin, or Gamelin, the French chap who's in charge generally at this point, just turns around and says, yeah, well, we've got all our troops on the front line, and everyone who's not him is going, so we have no strategic reserves. Like, nope. No, no, no, no, until when, at which point, everyone else kind of looking awkwardly at each other going, that's not...
00:16:05 Das ist gut, weil das mehr und mehr das Offensive empfiehlt, und das mehr und mehr die Germans create dieses Salient, theoretisch, wir sollten das Bracket haben, weil, bei diesem Punkt, die 6th, die 6th, die 6th, die 6th, die 6th, die 5th, die 5th, die 5th und die 7th sind wirklich zurückgekehrt. Die 1st, die 5th und die 5th sind wirklich zurückgekehrt. Aber ohne Reserves, all das passiert ist, als das Salient wird größer und größer und größer,
00:16:31 Die French lines of resistance are getting thinner and thinner and thinner, which of course allows the Germans to exploit increasing gaps, which forces them back, which forces more gaps, and so on and so forth. And, well, it's pretty much writing on the wall at that stage. Yeah, exactly. And at the same time, the BEF and the French, particularly the French First Army, are fighting the German troops that are coming through Belgium. And it's one of those sort of cases where it's often forgotten that...
00:16:59 in Belgium, a French, the equivalent of a Panzer Division in the French Army, I forget, I'm not going to pronounce it in French, I think it's a DLM, Division something Mechanique. Division Legale Mechanique, I think. Why do they call them Chevaliers or Gracias? I don't know, but there you go. And so, but one of these French divisions...
00:17:24 ...runns into 1st Panzer, ... ...because there are some Panzer divisions ... ...coming through Belgium ... ...and if the French ... ...can fight in an organized and coherent manner ... ...they stop the Germans. It's the fact that everything goes wrong around Sedan ... ...for no fault of any French soldier fighting ... ...on the line at the time.
00:17:46 You end up with this breakthrough that just stretches the Allied front line to the point. And the reserves that the Allies are relying on are mostly British Dominion. The 1st Canadian Division is arriving in the UK. There's a couple more divisions in Britain. 51st Highlanders, 1st Armoured, that are sort of being prepped for the second wave of the BEF. Because at this point, the BEF is 10 divisions.
00:18:12 When you think of the Germans with over 100, the French in something like 90, I think the Belgians technically have more division elements on paper than the British, because the British army has always been small. It's the most technologically coherent and advanced of all four armies present. It is the only fully mechanized force in the field. Motorized, you've got...
00:18:41 The artillery is motorised, the infantry can in theory get around in something powered by internal combustion, which comes across really handy at the point when the, because the Belgians surrender and blow open a hole in the French's flank. So there's a gap to the channel there. The Germans attempt to make a play for it.
Der Rückzug nach Dünkirchen und die Bildung des Kessels
00:19:06
00:19:06 The 1st French Army, the French 9th Army and the BEF are eventually pushed back out of Belgium into what's often known as the Dunkirk Pocket, which is about 15 miles by 25. The key thing is that the Germans can't shell the port facilities with artillery at the beginning. No. But they can hit it with the Luftwaffe. But the bulk of the Luftwaffe is trying to kill off the French Air Force.
00:19:35 So it's kind of a slow start. Hmm. I mean, there is also the elephant in the room that is the attack on the Netherlands. Because everyone expects Belgium, but the fact that the Germans also swing a right hook into the Netherlands catches everyone a little bit off. Yes, the German 19th Army, I believe. Yeah, because then suddenly, oh, what do you mean there's another flank in Belgium we have to deal with? What do you mean the Netherlands is gone? Yeah.
00:20:01 And so you end up with a situation where the pocket forms around. It's mostly the French who end up sort of digging in initially. The French do most of the fighting to hold the pocket in its entirety. You have, I think it's 5th or 6th Panzer. They get to one of the canals that sort of demarks...
00:20:28 um the salien because most of it's built around uh water obstacles canals and ridgelines that the french and british dig into and they get some bridges over one of the canals and at this point there's not a lot between them and the coast it's a couple battalions they're not quite set up yet but then you but then you have the the german army politics because you've got the panzer generals
00:20:57 and the generals are all about mobility, and just keep going, your Rommels, your Guderians, those kind of guys. And then you have the situation where the commander of the German 4th Armour, 4th Army, Gunther von Kluge, requests that the Panzers be stopped. Because he's seeing the reverse of what the French and British have as the problem, is this huge sort of hook into northern France.
00:21:26 mit einem entireen, wie ein Flank, von der French-German border zu der Channel. Und die Panzers sind auf der Coast-Side, und die Infanterie sind in Sedan, weil sie still walking sind. Und er ist like, wir müssen die Panzers stoppen und re-deployen sie, weil wenn die French die Unter-Attacken mit den forcesen, die wurden pushed zu der South, die Panzer-Divisionen könnten, und wenn wir die Panzer-Divisionen, es ist all over.
00:21:54 Yeah, and the other thing you've got to bear in mind is that just because they've managed to bridge the canal doesn't necessarily mean that they've solved the problem because the canal has had all its gates and locks sabotaged and has massively flooded the area. So you've got to bridge over the 12, 15 foot depth of water, but there's a huge, great impromptu swamp either side of it.
00:22:19 And, you know, it's this whole combination of everyone's exhausted, supplies and logistics are running low. Between combat and mechanical casualties, what mechanized units the Germans have are significantly down on strength. And they're just looking at going, we could drive through a swamp in our remaining panzers and get bogged down and then get horribly murdered from flanking attacks. Or we could not do that.
Deutsche Fehleinschätzungen und alliierte Gegenangriffe
00:22:48
00:22:48 Wait and, you know, re-consolidate everybody and try this in an organized manner. Yeah. And then Göring, the ever-helpful, shows up and is like, I can do it myself. Yeah. In between snorting lines of meth. Yeah. There is also the fact that, I mean, Drax just highlighted it. Think about this from the general perspective. All they know is they've cut the Allies in two. Yes, they've created a massive pocket, but they've only just created it. There's been no reduction in strength of the forces in that pocket.
00:23:17 And there hasn't been much reduction in strength to the forces outside the pocket either. That's kind of the problem for the Germans at this moment, when the Panzers have just reached the coast, that's what German High Command is saying. Congratulations, we've cut the Allied armies in two, but we've not meaningfully reduced them in strength. We need to now consolidate so we can crush that pocket properly, which therefore means we'll have the reduction in strength we need.
00:23:45 to fight a battle of destruction in the rest of france at superiority in numbers of material because they have no idea that the french government is already beginning to teeter because it's not become obvious yet that's what's going to happen yeah as far as far as the germans are concerned at this moment they are looking at another six to seven months of hard campaigning to totally occupy france by force yeah and honestly if the french government hadn't begun to teach at that point the thing is
00:24:13 We know something they don't because we know it in hindsight. If they hadn't begun to teach at that point, if they had to redouble, they'd have probably won because the Germans are quite so imbalanced. The Germans are in quite such a bad position they've got themselves into. They have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. And that's a bad thing in war, believe it or not. When you succeed beyond your wildest dreams and you now can't support your forces and that huge gap between their Panzer divisions and their infantry.
00:24:40 If you had a couple of mobile divisions sitting to the south of that gap and they rolled through it, they would literally have been able to roll through, cut off the German supplies and there would be nothing tanks could have done it. Because where the tanks were and where they had their supplies were two different places. And if you roll through, cut off the supplies, they're not getting resupplied. You've basically done a World War II equivalent to what the British did when they let Bonaparte take his army to Egypt.
00:25:08 Es ist brillant. Die Haupt-French-Armee sitzt in Egypt und es kann nichts tun in den Krieg, oder in der Second-Koalition. Es ist großartig. Ja, und die andere Dinge, die in mind ist, dass die Germans nicht entirely wrong sind, um ein Allied-Counterattacken zu beschäftigen, weil, als die Pocken, die dann in den Dunkelkirchen wird, die erste die Bef und die First-French-Armee tatsächlich versuchen, ist ein Counterattack-South, um zu brechen durch.
00:25:36 mit den resten der Allieden. Es geht nicht sehr weit, weil sie nicht so viele supplies haben, und sie sind sehr bewusst, dass sie, dass jeder mile sie in die Germanen fahren, sie sind jetzt auf drei Seiten, von vielen und vielen Germans. So sie enden abzuhren, aber das ist genau die Situation, vielleicht en masse und etwas besser organisiert, die die Germans worrieden würde es passieren. Die Forces sind da! Die Forces sind da! Die Forces sind da!
00:26:05 They're in place. But the situation is so confused that the side that is less confused has the advantage. And at that moment, that side is the Germans. There's also a roll of the dice situation going on because whatever they might want to do, the British and French forces trapped in the pocket are cut off from the rest of France's logistical network. So they only have a finer amount of food and fuel and ammunition.
00:26:34 so they can't afford to keep attacking keep attacking keep attacking they have to basically go all or nothing and if they don't think they can do it it's not worth doing because that's just a very easy way to lose a lot of men yeah whereas fighting a defensive war while they still have lines of defense is a much better way of grinding the germans down and also believing that the forces of the southland will make break make a breakthrough to them
00:27:01 und kommen von einem anderen Seite, wo sie können. Und die Sache ist, das ist, dass man die bessere Kommunikation ist, weil wenn es die Kommunikation ist, wenn es eine Koordinierung ist, wenn es ein Attacken kam von den Süden kamen, wenn sie in den Süden kamen kamen, die in den Süden kamen, die in den Süden kamen, die in den Süden kamen, die in den Süden kamen. Weil sie wissen, sie wissen, dass sie vielleicht mit Allies kommen, die in den anderen Direktoren kamen.
00:27:23 Das wäre der Worte. Wir können die erste Myth der Kampagne. Die Pocket war nicht crushed, weil Hitler wollte diplomatische Negotiate mit den Briten. Nein. Führer Directive 13, die die Panzers zu halten, specifically includes die Luftwaffe zu destroyen die Pocket.
00:27:52 There is very little proper evidence of Hitler wanting to try and smooth over relations with Britain by not crushing the BEF. This is one of those rare moments. They do happen during the war. I can think of a few, for example, Hitler refocusing the generals on taking resource-rich areas in the Soviet Union, for example, rather than focusing a Schwerpunkt on Moscow. His drivers are saying, Stalingrad's not that important. Let's take the Caucasus instead.
00:28:21 Basically, it's one of those rare ones where Hitler actually goes, hang on a minute. Us doing the thing you want us to do is silly. No, no, hold everything. And in this particular case, he goes, I'm looking at the maps you're giving me. That doesn't look logistically safe. Let's call a halt to things. Göring, my friend, has told me he can do the job. And let's preserve our precious panzers that...
00:28:45 We can't replace that easily. The infantry... Can I just object to that? Because the nicest way you just used the words Hitler and saying that doesn't look logistically safe. I don't think Hitler ever actually considered logistics in his entire life. He was listening to Göring and listening to others and he put it with SESA in terms of they could show the power of Germany and also that would help with future negotiations. If he'd been able to destroy the army from the end and absolutely annihilate it from the air, that would be a very scary thing for everyone to deal with. And he was...
Luftwaffe-Einsatz und alliierte Evakuierungspläne
00:29:13
00:29:13 Er ist, an dieser Stelle, an dieser Stelle, um die Erwärmung zu verändern. Er hat das in den Niederlanden gemacht. Er hat das in Rotterdam gemacht. Er hat das in den Niederlanden gemacht. Er hat das in den Niederlanden gemacht. Er hat das in den Niederlanden gemacht. Er hat das in den Niederlanden gemacht. Er hat das in den Niederlanden gemacht. Er hat das in den Niederlanden gemacht. Er hat das in den Niederlanden gemacht. Er hat das in Niederlanden gemacht. Er hat das in Niederlanden gemacht. Er hat das in Niederlanden gemacht. Er hat das in Niederlanden gemacht. Er hat das in Niederlanden gemacht. Er hat das in Niederlanden gemacht. Er hat das in Niederlanden gemacht. Er hat das in Niederlanden gemacht. Er hat das in Niederlanden gemacht. Er hat das in Niederlanden gemacht. Er hat das in N
00:29:40 Well, then they'll negotiate with him. They'll be forced to, won't they? Because they'll be scared of him. And as far as he's concerned, they're trapped there. So if it doesn't work, well, you know, give Göring a week or two. If it doesn't work, then the army will have consolidated and you can just push in conventionally anyway. So as far as he's concerned, he's got time. Yeah. And the other problem, of course, though, the really fun thing, though, without a whole analysis, of course, is that's Hitler forgetting that whilst the other forces involved do have heavy bomber fleets.
00:30:09 He doesn't have one. And our building, more heavy bombers. Yes. And again, it's a case of what you can do to them, you might be very effective. But you have lightweight tactical support aircraft, which are excellent for what you're planning on. But threatening that kind of strategic bombing war, you need the big bombers. I... I... And the RAF is in a position like the...
00:30:34 Was it? The Advanced Air Tactical Striking Force, the AATSF, which is the RAF in France. Like, what's left of it is still in France. Churchill has become Prime Minister with this whole everything kicking off. The RAF is doing everything it can in France to try and, like, the stories of French and British pilots, like, crashing aircraft, trying to hit German bridges.
00:31:01 at this point in the war, is something that is often overlooked. Oh, completely. I will just very quickly say that while, yes, most of the Luftwaffe's platforms are not equivalent to the aircraft operated by the British at this moment,
00:31:23 The Heinkel and the Ju88 are just close enough within shouting distance that I say you can use them in a roll equivalent to... Are you talking about the 111? The Heinkel 111 and the 88, yeah. Those two airframes can be used with a similar sort of bomb load of stuff like early model Wellington, Whitley, Hamden's. Although 541, the British are like, hello, we have this thing. It's called a Stirling.
00:31:51 Ja, das Problem das Luftwaffe hat ist, dass sie versuchen, zu recoupen Losses von der Initial Assault zu retten. Sie versuchen, die Pockets zu bomben, das includes, zu attacken Ships-at-Sea, die Luftwaffe, an diesem Punkt, nicht wirklich trainiert für. FliegerCore X ist noch ein Jahr oder so weiter.
00:32:12 as well as also trying to reorganise to deal with the reforming French forces to the south of the pocket. So the Luftwaffe, as impressive and as powerful as Göring thinks it is, important distinction compared to actually how many aircraft they have available, the Luftwaffe has too many tasks for too little aircraft, even though some aircraft, technically speaking, are entirely capable of doing, in theory, what Göring wants them to do.
00:32:41 Und wenn Sie die He-Eleven haben, dann haben sie ungefähr 800 bis 1939. Und ich kiege Sie nicht, dass sie ein paar Variationen haben. Also die Maintenance und Organisation der Generationen sind ein absoluter nightmare. Um, ja. Ja, ich würde sagen, aber ein paar der Revisionen waren in der gleichen Variationen, und ein paar der Aircraften werden convertiert.
00:33:08 Two of the modern versions as it goes on. Okay, Fleet, how do you uprate an engine? You replace it. Well, yeah, you replace it in the airframe. That's one of the things with the various models. What effect does uprating an engine do on the airframe? Do uprated engines always have the same stress points and same securing points for the engine that they're put into? No, not at all.
00:33:33 Es ist ein Grund, warum sie diese Upgrades auf die F ist, aber ich denke, von G aufwärts ist es, wenn sie wirklich die Power upwärts haben. Und es bekommt das Distinctive Battle of Britain Bubble Canopy für den ersten Mal. Der Punkt, die ich versuche, ist...
00:33:52 I do agree with you. They do have things on paper which can fill the role. But in practicality, the way they've designed their force structure, they almost need someone sitting there going, yes, you've got a good idea. It's not good enough yet to deploy. Wait until we've got enough of those ideas and then deploy them. I mean, to be fair, given that the Luftwaffe is a tactical air force, and in this particular case, the job it's being asked to do, which is the destruction of an army in Dunkirk,
00:34:20 is a tactical task the fact that it can't do the job is a more damning incitement of the Luftwaffe than the fact it can't do strategic bombing the fact that the Luftwaffe has been asked to do a tactical job and it can't do it
00:34:38 I'd argue it's not a tactical task though in some regards because once you're doing your bombing positions which are laid out and you're basically doing area bombing because you've got no one on the ground pointing out of positions or any way helping to flush them out or make them maneuver so they're able to take actual good provisions to try and hide themselves from the air and actually conceal themselves and you're just doing almost wide area bombing to try and get them. It is strategic bombing.
00:35:06 Und so, so this map shows everyone sort of like the rate of progression. So going from the 10th of May to the 30th of May, that's how quickly the Germans advance across. And by the 20th of May, so roughly when the fighting around Arras is kicking off, which is one of the actions that freaks the Germans out. It's one of the few attempted breakouts from the pocket.
00:35:34 by Allied forces. They don't have enough force strength, as we said, because they are limited in terms of supplies. By this point, there is a decision in Britain to evacuate the BEF. At this point, it's not 100%. Are they just going to be evacuated back to Dover because it's a short hop and then send them back into France via Cherbourg?
00:35:57 ...to reinforce the French, or is it a case of pulling the army out because we're going to need it because France looks like they might capitulate? At this point, the French are not made aware of these plans on the British side. The French forces that make up the bulk of the pockets and the local French commander, who I believe is an admiral, are under the impression that the British are just going to move down the channel because...
Kooperation und Chaos bei der Evakuierung
00:36:27
00:36:27 Because to think a complete evacuation implies the British are abandoning them. It's all over the place. Although it only covers it in a chapter, there's a really good book, The French Name in World War II, by Re-Admiral Paul Orfin and Jacques Mordal, which covers this whole operation. And the reason why it's particularly good for Dunkirk...
00:36:52 is because one of the authors was in the French Admiralty in Paris during this period. The other author was in the Dunkirk pocket. So they've got the whole picture from the French side of things. And yeah, it is interesting because initially the French Navy actually mobilizes, you know, we've got, we'll come to the little ships of Dunkirk later, but they actually mobilize their own little ship's flotilla in an attempt to resupply.
00:37:19 dunkirk with food fuel and ammunition because they have got a limited number of large ships so while they're rounding up large ships they basically get 50 100 150 ton coasters and drifters and trawlers and use them to move supplies into dunkirk to try and get the you know the british french forces up to speed with their supplies in theory for a breakout but while that is happening
00:37:43 You have this very strange thing going on. The French Navy, the Marine Nationale, is gearing up to do that and to provide heavier fire support. They actually send the Courbet and the Paris, or Paris, I guess it's French, the two of the old Courbet class, they send them into a really quick refit where they basically cover them with as many light anti-aircraft guns as they can humanly get their hands on.
00:38:07 And their plan is to, when the inevitable, as they think counteroffensive is signalled, they're going to sail these two old battleships right into the harbour and basically support the counterattack with direct fire from 12-inch guns, basically point blank against the Germans. And so the French Admiralty is preparing all this. Meanwhile, in Paris, you have the first discussions about seeking a separate armistice with the Germans.
00:38:36 at the same time as the Navy is preparing to launch a counteroffensive, which doesn't go down very well with elements of the French Navy, but the French Army is more in favour of it. And of course that's in violation of the Anglo-French alliance, which says neither one should seek change in war circumstances without consulting the other. Meanwhile, the British are looking at the situation and going, yeah, this is not sustainable. We need to get everybody out.
00:39:02 So, everybody's working across purposes, and it's only a couple of days after all these decisions and discussions are initiated in their various quarters that people actually start to catch up with each other, and the French realise the British are trying to evacuate, and the British realise that the French are kind of half split between seeking an armistice and half looking to fight on, because they're organising a second BEF to land down the coast, and yeah, I mean, at this point...
00:39:31 Calais ist nur auf den Weg aus, aber es ist noch immer noch zu sein, aber es ist noch immer noch zu sein. So es ist eine complete mess. Aber eigentlich, die books von einem britischen Perspektiven und die books von einem frischen Perspektiven sind, beide mentionen, dass es keinen Punkt in den Trennen zu getrennt.
00:39:56 was die Arme nicht aus den verschiedenen Armeen, weil die Armeen weder kann oder nicht mit ihnen zu sprechen, außerhalb der sehr basicen, Frontline-Levels. Und es ist mostly die Navies der Armeen, die die Armeen getrennt und cooperiert sind. Denn als der Marine Nationale hört, okay, das ist nicht ein Reinforcement-Operation, das ist ein Evacuation-Operation,
00:40:21 mit Admiral Ramsey in Dover und sagen, okay, was wir brauchen? Wie können wir arbeiten? Wo können wir gehen? Und das ist, warum von dem Start, obwohl es weniger Marine Nationale in der Channel gibt, als in der Royal Navy gibt, von dem Start gibt es viele French Destroyer und andere Spiele.
00:40:42 um they're both on guard duty and on evacuation duty along with the main effort which is coming from the royal navy yes so like here is brass herself one of the french destroyers that's lost supporting the evacuation and that's not her crew on board good lord she's taken it back yeah yeah that's gonna be a i mean in one sense you could almost thank the norwegian campaign for the fact that this operation is possible at all
00:41:11 Because thanks to the absolute pasting the Kriegsmarina has taken in Norway, they don't have anything capable of trying to stop the naval forces. So apart from the Calcutta, which is an AA cruiser, pretty much the next biggest warship involved in the operation are some of the bigger French super destroyers. But the Kriegsmarina basically has almost zero cruisers.
00:41:39 Both the Scharnhorst and the Gneisenauer are in dock for repairs. Most of their destroyer force has been wiped out. So the biggest thing that the Germans can throw at the naval effort is a combination of U-boats, which don't do particularly well because everyone knows that they're coming, and a few of the Schnellbooter, which actually do relatively well. They managed to nab a French destroyer and they damage, I think they damaged the Sirocco.
00:42:04 which then gets finished off by the Luftwaffe, but realistically it was the Schnellbüter that got her first. They managed to attack a few other, and damage a few other ships. Sirocco is lost to E-Boat Attack, Burask hits a mine, and Le Voidrant is lost to Air Attack off the beaches.
00:42:28 In the meantime, the British lose HMS's Grafton Grenade, Wakefield, Basilisk, Cavendt and Keith. Ah, yes, the loss of Keith. Yes. And so the point when the sort of the pocket has consolidated, like Calais falls first, and Calais is famous for being the closest point between continental Europe and the UK. On a good day, you can see...
00:42:55 ... ... ... ... ...
00:43:21 trying to get as many men out of the port as they can. You know, I can think who can win that engagement. And it ain't the tanks. There is an eyewitness report from a French civilian in Calais who claims they saw a Panzer II do a backflip. I've read from the Royal Navy perspective. Yeah, this tank rolls up onto the seafront.
00:43:47 und sie sehen, die Turret starte zu treten. Und da ist dieses Moment in den Forward Guncruisern, wie sie wirklich das dumm sind? Oh, sie wirklich sind! Okay, 4.7-inch Shell-to-the-face, Joodles! Und watch it, watch it go spitting off into the sea.
00:44:01 Und ja, das ist der Trouble, die sind nicht die Tanks, die sind nicht die Tanks, die sind nicht die Tanks, die sind nicht die Late War Tanks, die sind die Early War Tanks, die sind die Late War Tanks, die sind nicht die Tanks, die haben Spaß an D-Day. Ich würde nicht nur die Jagdtiger machen, und das ist die Sache, aber es ist der Fall, es ist der Fall, es ist der Fall, es ist der Fall, es ist der Fall, es ist der Fall, es ist der Fall, es ist der Fall, es ist der Fall, es ist der Fall, es ist der Fall, es ist der Fall,
00:44:25 If the tank hadn't decided to try and engage the ship, the ship probably wouldn't have bothered with it because it was dealing with other things at the time that were more important. But the moment the tank makes itself a target by going, oh, I'm going to fight you. Oh, you do want to do that. Yeah, exactly. And so... One of the interesting things that does come up at one point, and this is probably one of the advantages of not having good old Churchill as First Lord of the Emeralty.
00:44:54 uh at this point is that uh he wanted to uh try and send an r-class in to help recover the dunkirk position rather similar to the scenario with the two french battleships to help them and um the royal navy managed to persuade him no it's not sensible if iron juke had not been a gunnery training ship you could have potentially possibly made the case that risking losing her might have been viable but she wasn't she was a gunnery training ship
00:45:22 The thing is that the thing is one of these weird things in that when the evacuation starts, if you look at it purely in terms of what is done on the first couple of days, they're not thinking of, you know, there's almost close to half a million men in this pocket. And initially the estimates are we might get 45,000 out if we're lucky.
00:45:50 Because they're anticipating the Germans shutting their whole thing down in a couple of days. And in the first few days, they're only really evacuating in what you might term a traditional evacuation. So we're talking about destroyers, transports and other large ships going into the harbour, docking up at the proper docks, taking people off, sailing back out again, etc. Which, obviously, there's a limited number of ships.
00:46:15 There's a limited amount of docking space and there's an awful lot of Luftwaffe bombers looking to score a free kill or two. So they don't really get that many men off at the start. And I think this is a mini myth of everybody looking around going, well, our normal methods aren't working now. What do we do? Panic, panic, little ships. In actual fact, they're very well aware that this is not going to work right from the start. They know what the dock capacity of Dunkirk is and that it's nowhere near what they need.
Mobilisierung der kleinen Schiffe
00:46:4400:46:44 So, but what's happening is that simultaneously as the first evacuations are taking place they're scouring the Thames and the Medway and pretty much everywhere on the south coast for small craft to come and help because the problem with evacuating off of the beaches and then later on when they also go out onto the two breakwaters is that you can get some ships alongside the breakwaters but
00:47:10 Dunkirk is a very flat, shallow beach. You're not getting anywhere close to the beach with a big ship. So until you've got a fleet of small craft that can go back and forth from the beaches to the bigger ships, there's no point trying to evacuate from there. So at the time the evacuation is starting, they're already gathering the little ships, but they haven't got them ready yet because it takes a couple of days to mobilize it all. And of course...
Die Organisation der Evakuierungsflotte und die Rolle der Royal Navy Destroyers
00:47:38
00:47:38 um initially the plan is we're taking over these craft and we'll sail them with naval crews and then they realize they don't have anywhere close to the naval personnel so then the plan is okay we'll take these craft and we'll sail them with naval crews in charge and we'll bulk up with civilian volunteers and then it turns out we don't have enough men to even do that so you get some of the little ships purely navally manned some manned with naval crews with civilian support and some
00:48:07 Where they've just gone, look, we'd love to take your ship. It theoretically can make it across the channel, but we just don't have the manpower to do it. And that's where you get the civilians going, well, screw this, we're going out there anyway. Yeah. And what I would say, though, is one of the things it's worth remembering, especially with the time of the trips, is that there is a reason why some of the destroyers, including some rather small destroyers, are actually quite high up in the number of people they save. And if you look in the top ten...
00:48:35 In terms of the number of people they get across and get recovered from Dunkirk. Four of them are Royal Navy destroyers. HMS Malcom is 1,530 tonnes. It's 1919. It gets 5,991 people across. Codrington, she was built in 1930. She's 1,540 tonnes. She gets 5,450 people across. But then you have Worcester and Icarus, who are both...
00:49:03 Worcester ist 1,120 Tonnen. Sie ist eine sehr kleine Destroyer. Built in 1922, sie bringt 4,661 Tonnen. Und Icarus ist 1,370 Tonnen, und sie bringt 4,396 Tonnen. Und was wirklich interessant ist, dass diese Ships, diese Destroyer, barring Codrington...
00:49:31 Malcolm was damaged on the 1st of June and repaired after Dynamo. Worcester is on the 1st of June and left Dynamo for repairs. Icarus is left Dynamo for repairs on the 2nd of June.
00:49:48 So they're not necessarily there the whole way through, but they do a lot of trips. And that's what the main thing the British are finding. If they can get the ships across, if they can get them loaded up quickly, they can do the trips. These destroyers are doing eights. They're doing a lot of trips across and back. And that's how the British are basically trying to gear up to run things. They don't want a lot of people sitting there loading very large ships. They want to get the people quickly onto a ship, quickly away and quickly back.
00:50:17 Und das ist auch ein Grund, warum man nicht mehr Cruisers sehen, warum man nicht mehr von den Royal Navy's größten, oder die French-Largeren Ships, weil, frankly, es dauert zu lange zu laden. Und dann werden sie sich nicht mehr zu laden. Wenn ihr Static ist, dann ist er ein Tempting-Target. Und das ist eine andere Probleme, dass sie die RAF sozusagen reconfigures ihre entireen Strategie in Northern France, um zu try and defend Dunkirk.
Luftunterstützung und Wetterbedingungen während der Evakuierung
00:50:46
00:50:46 But relations between the Army and Navy and the Royal Air Force don't end very well afterwards because there's a perception that the RAF didn't support them because in the skies over Dunkirk there's very, very few RAF aircraft seen. But the reason for that is because the RAF is exploiting the radar arrays that they've got and they're actually intercepting the German raids.
00:51:11 away from Dunkirk over the rest of France and Belgium and they're breaking up and shooting down a lot of the incoming raids but the ones that get passed then show up over Dunkirk and you know because they've gone past the RAF lines all most of the Troop C are German aircraft coming down and at that point it's you know early war anti-aircraft guns as found on
00:51:37 Mostly light warships versus dive bombers. It's Bren guns, Lewis guns, Vickers guns. This is probably one of the more famous photos of the beaches themselves. Of guys with their rifles shooting at Stukas. And the Luftwaffe is... Because originally the Luftwaffe is thinking about this logically. They're like, if they're going to evacuate, they're going to use Dunkirk's port facilities. Because Dunkirk has quite well set up port facilities for a town of its size.
00:52:07 It's got oil storage tanks. It's got areas where ships can dock. So they start bombing that. And then they hit the fuel tanks, which in every other situation would be a good thing for decreasing Allied war-making potential. But all it does at Dunkirk is create this huge cloud of black smoke, which blinds the Luftwaffe for several days over the beaches, because they can't see.
00:52:33 Dunkirk, from the altitudes they're attacking from. I'd just like to highlight something, just to really hammer home what Drax said about the RAF. A lot of the images we see, a lot of the recounts we get are people saying a Stuka came down, or a pair of Dornier 17s appeared, or a Heinkel 111 showed up. Now think about that. Do you really think that when that aircraft set off, or those aircraft set off on that mission...
00:53:00 There was just the one of them. No, they would have been part of a squadron. They would have been part of a full raid. The fact that the RAF was doing such a good job is evident in those accounts. That out of a raid of Ju-87s, out of a raid of Heinkels, out of a raid of Dorniers, they're getting through in 1s and 2s and possibly 3s. Yep. Which is credit to the German pilots of being brave enough to continue doing that when their group of 4, 8, 12 aircraft is reduced to...
00:53:28 just you and your tail gunner. Yeah. Yeah. So like there's bravery being shown in all sides but so the Luftwaffe is ineffective at destroying the BEF and preventing the evacuation but is very effective at making itself ineffective at preventing the evacuation because it hits otherwise military sound targets. It's a weird and the weather on several of the other days like
00:53:56 Nowadays in the UK and France we're used to very nice and sort of clear and pleasant late Mays and Junes. This time it was quite cloudy, the weather wasn't great, the channel can be a bit iffy.
00:54:11 And it's a very low-level cloud as well. So again, it's like from most of the sailors and the soldiers on the beach, it's you're on the beach, you hear the stereotypical, the siren of a Stuka, and one comes out of the clouds. And then that German pilot has to, while he's already in the dive, identify something that he can bomb and bomb without crashing straight into the ground.
00:54:41 So, most of the ships and such that take hits are when they're out at sea. They're making the runs. Because it's usually easier for the Germans to attack those ships than ships in the harbour because of the weather conditions and because of the fact that what anti-aircraft protection there is is concentrated around the embarkation points. I mean, because if they're out at sea, Hans and Helmut in that J87 over there can see you. Yeah.
Anekdoten und Details zur Evakuierung
00:55:10
00:55:10 And in terms of the AA and stuff, I thought there's a rather interesting passage. This is from aboard HMS Speedwell, which is... Good name. It's a minesweeper. So she's not a large craft. And this will... Just again, double check the date. So yeah, this is early on in the evacuation.
00:55:36 Und der Schapu narrated, er hat es gesagt, als wir klar haben, so sie hat den Port, da waren drohs von Geri-Planen über und Speedwell hatte eine Lively-Time-Dodging-Bombing-Attacks. Die Methoden in Sweepers war es zu put den Helm hard über, als er die Bomber war committed zu sein. Normally, ein Fleet Sweeper will hardly heal at all, wenn in ein Tight Turn. Aber mit über 800 extra Men Aboard, Speedwell healed alarmingly, while dodging Bombs.
00:56:03 However, the soldiers were an asset, as 15 of them were brain gunners and proved rather eager to contribute to the anti-aircraft fire. That's actually, if you think about a ship that size, that is a terrifying amount of tracers leaping out from that ship. Speedwell was a Halcyon-class minesweeper. At full load, she's 1,300 tons, so about the weight of a destroyer. When you add 800 extra people on board, because her...
00:56:31 Her actual crew complement was 80. Mm-hmm. So she's rated for 80 people. She's carrying 880. Just for reference quickly, Dredge. How much would a destroyer... Like, we're talking about, what, that period, a pair of 20mm automatic cannon, maybe? Yes, not even that. Most of them would have had 50 cal Vickers. And then...
00:56:53 und vielleicht ein Pompons. Und dann haben wir alle die Bredguns gebracht. Ja, und jemand mit .303s hat sich in als auch. Aber die Brens sind die mehr effekte. So, als built, sie hat eine 4-Inch-Gun, das war ein Antiaircraft-Firger, eine 4-Inch-Gun, das war ein Antiaircraft-Firger und 8 Lewis-Guns. So, basically, wir haben double die Rautomatik Antiaircraft-Firger.
00:57:17 um uh she did three trips in total recovering 1502 men yeah and then she was she was lost was she lost or was she or did she survive damage yes and then she was hit by a bomb um during one of her runs and so so so you often hear like unfortunately as i understand most of the ships that were hit are hit on the return journey
00:57:45 when they're not carrying troops. Because if a bomb hits her when she's got 800 men on board, extra men, that's a lot of extra casualties. Especially because they're mostly on the upper decks. Yeah, it's like the fact that in Barask's case, she's hit a mine here. So luckily, most of the evacuees are in her upper works or on her upper deck, so they shouldn't... It's mainly just her engineering crew that are at risk from a mine strike.
00:58:13 Is the route map available? Yes, we do. So you have route Z, route X, and route Y. Guess which route is the route they tend to try and use for a turn route, and guess which are the routes they use. Alright, chat, there you go. A question for you. So, of the three routes, which is the route to Dunkirk, and which is the route out of Dunkirk? The preferred ones, eh? Yes.
00:58:41 While they're debating that, there's another rather somewhat amusing section. This is also from the perspective of Speedwell. So at one point, they're making their way valiantly towards Dunkirk. And they're obviously not particularly quick. And then the destroyer Ivanhoe shows up and comes steaming past them at full speed.
00:59:07 And they're like, oh, okay, well, I guess you're going first. And when she's about 100 yards ahead of them, Ivanhoe catches a bomb direct to midships and comes to a screaming halt. So they're like, oh, I guess our first evacuation is Ivanhoe. They pull up alongside. They start taking off some evacuees. And then he says, just as we were about to push off, one or two of Ivanhoe's ratings started to climb over the side as well. Ivanhoe's captain looked down and said,
00:59:35 Where do you think you're going? I thought she might sink, sir. Oh, no, she's not. You come back here. Get back on board this ship. She's not sinking just yet. For goodness sake, man, grab a bucket. At which point, Ivanhoe did actually make it in the end, so the captain was right. So the current theory is that Route Y is the route to Dunkirk, and X and Z are routes back to Dover.
01:00:04 Nope, I don't think it is, is it? Well, it all changes as time goes on. So in terms of leaving, because they do try and use all three routes for leaving, Z is the quickest route away. Unfortunately, it means, as you can see, having to run close to the French coast, pretty much down to Calais before you head across the Channel.
01:00:30 And by this point, the Germans have captured enough of that coastline that they've either got mobile artillery or a few captured shore batteries, which they can turn on everybody. So although it's the shortest, it very, very quickly becomes kind of an evening-night-only route when hopefully you can't be seen. X is the next shortest and takes you directly away from the French coast, which is great, but it also moves over...
01:00:58 A whole series of sandbars, some of which will be very familiar to his people who are interested in the Spanish Armada. And it also moves through a very heavily mined area. So you have to basically go up all the way up as you can past Dover, further north, almost to the Medway Estuary. Then you hit the Goodwin Light Ship and turn left. Turn left after the Light Ship. There's one more question, why don't you just carry on to Chatham at that point?
01:01:27 Ja, das ist ja. Es ist eigentlich die MIND-ROOT. Es ist eigentlich die MIND-ROOT. Es ist eigentlich die MIND-ROOT, die nur die Z-Destroyers machen, wenn sie nur an höchstenswert machen können. X-ROOT ist die ROOT der Slower-Vessels-Vessels-Vessels-Vessels-Vessels-Vessels-Vessels-Vessels-Vessels-Vessels-Vessels-Vessels-Vessels-Vessels-Vessels-Vessels-Vessels-Vessels-Vessels-Vessels-Vessels-Vessels-Vessels-Vessels.
01:01:50 Sie alternieren zwischen uns, und manchmal gibt es Leute, die einfach nur auf und auf den gleichen Weg gehen. Aber es ist wirklich nicht gut. Und warum wird es endlich getabandoned? Weil es, als Sie sehen, es ist der eine der größten, und es ist der eine der größten East. So, das ist wo viele Schnellboote attacks. Und es ist also, weil es die furthest away von den UK ist, wo Allied aircover ist der least effektiv.
01:02:16 Die Luftwaffe kann man pretty much straight at it. So, why? Initially, they try and use it, but by about halfway through the evacuation, they basically abandoned it. All those routes, they basically give you a very good idea of where the minefields are.
01:02:35 und der Scholls, weil das ist wirklich was sie fredding durch. Sie fredding durch die Scholls und Scholls, weil sie es sind, weil sie es sind, wo die Leute zu gehen können, ohne sie zu überraschen. Ja. Ja, so die Minesweepern, als ich verstehe, sind sie auf der Weg in, pick up Troops, zurück zu Dover, und dann auf der Weg zurück in, so dass sie immer wieder in den Routen versuchen, dass sie die Routen öffnen. Weil, wenn ein Destroyer hits ein Mines doing 34 knots...
01:03:04 She's probably a goner. It's why the Halcyon class was so important. They are minesweeping sloops, technically fleet minesweeping sloops is what they're defined as. And again, my cameras decided it prefers my books to me. And it happens occasionally. And they were, how do I put this, they have a really interesting World War II.
01:03:30 Some of them end up in Russia, assisting with the Arctic Convoys, getting them into Russia and operating out of Russia and all sorts of things during the war. They are basically the Royal Navy's, oh my lord, we have a problem. Let's send in a Halcyon class, they'll figure it out. They're not at all famous.
01:03:48 after the war, and they're not like the Black Swan Sloops, they're not like other classes which get a lot written about them and talked about them. They kind of get forgotten, but whenever there's a major operation, you can usually tell how important it is, there's a Halcyon class done up. But just to very quickly address something that Killebin said about why not go to Chatham.
Logistische und strategische Überlegungen bei der Evakuierung
01:04:09
01:04:09 Well, first of all, you probably... A lot of this is conjecture on my part, and I welcome my colleagues coming in if I'm wrong. But first of all, you probably want to concentrate your arrivals in one place. Secondly, Dover is perfectly set up to receive them for a few key reasons. First of all, it's a center of the cross-channel ferry trade. There's a lot of good birthing available. Secondly...
01:04:34 You've also got a port that can deal with smaller traffic as well quite easily. But one of the more important reasons to my mind is Dover Marine, which is where the railways can literally bring trains right into the port, right next to the dockside, as soon as troops are there, onto a train, gone. And there is no clogging up of the port. Just get them clear and make way for the next set coming in.
01:05:00 There's no milling around, there's no marching, just get them on a train and get them gone. Yeah, the Southern Railway does a lot of very heavy lifting in this period, suddenly having to move 350,000 men out of one city. There's another less nice reason, but I'll let Drac go first. One of the other problems is that Chatham is partway up the Medway, so with Dover you have a certain degree of almost open approach.
01:05:29 If there's German air attack or mines or submarines, you can come in at Dover from almost any angle and then you only have to lock in your approach at the last minute. Whereas if you go to Chatham, you have to go up the Medway Estuary, then up the Medway, at which point, yes, you may technically be moving, but you are painting an extremely big target on your back because if the Germans, well, the Luftwaffe at that point, if they come after you then,
01:05:58 You basically have nowhere to manoeuvre. You can keep going forward, but they can factor in for that. And also, frankly, Chatham is still a fairly active naval port at that stage. They've got other things to be getting on with. Dover is an almost entirely civilian port. They can essentially switch over to just processing ships in and out.
01:06:19 I thought the track was actually going to get onto the point which I was going to talk about, but no. No, that's your ball. Yeah, yeah, you need the nasty one for me to explain. Okay, the nasty point is this. The British were, of course, not just picking up British, they were picking up French soldiers and other Allied units. And you're not necessarily sure if all the Allied units and people being there are actually who they're supposed to be. It's a lot of admins are sorted out.
01:06:46 Chatham is a naval dockyard. Chatham has a lot of vital stuff going for it. Dover, if you get someone who's not supposed to be there going into Dover, it's very difficult for them to get access to anything which you actually worry about. Yes, it's annoying. Yes, it's problematic. But you have time to deal with them. You're not dropping them straight into a place where they could potentially learn stuff you don't want to learn. So in a nasty way, it's being nasty, but it's basically...
01:07:12 Es ist ein level von Paranoid, wie ein Intelligenz Officer zu sein. Weil ein Intelligenz Officer ist nicht zu fragen, ob sie nicht zu fragen, sondern ob sie genug sind. Ich dachte, du warst mit den ganzen, dass die Forscher waren unter Orders für Wounded Men zu werden, weil ein Mann auf der Strecke ist, die Sprechung der Sprechung der Sprechung ist.
01:07:33 Nein, das war gut, und eigentlich zu Dover war sensibel für das, weil sie haben hospital trainiert. Und das ist was ich, sie haben die hospital trainiert. Das ist kein Problem. Ich glaube, Chatham könnte das haben, weil wir Chatham haben, weil wir Chatham haben, eine Krankenhaus-Hospital-Facil, da und all diese Dinge. Aber es ist auch der Grund, warum Portsmouth ist nicht benutzt, und warum sie nicht andere Krankenhäuser beteiligt sind.
01:08:00 I've just looked into that quickly, by the way. And just reference, in the period from 26th May to 4th June, they moved 620 trains carrying 319,000 people over a space of network that's barely 100 miles. That's insane. Yeah, we actually have a question. Who is responsible for getting the recovered personnel back to their units, the War Office? A lot of them end up in camps on the South Coast for a while.
01:08:28 They're just like, okay, you go here, here is a tent, stay there till we can figure out who you are and where you're from. Basically, because everything about... The evacuation is planned at very high levels with guys like Admiral Ramsey and a lot of people in Whitehall trying to figure out everything and you've got the railway companies trying to make sure that there are trains when the ships arrive and you've got the dockyards trying to patch up ships so they can go out again. You've got...
01:08:57 People trying to find spare parts for every imaginable marine engine under the sun, because there's no consistency to what actually is being used here. You've got to talk with the French, you've got to talk with the Belgians, there's Canadians involved, there's the Polish, there's the Dutch, there's some Norwegians. Like, if it floated and it could handle the tide, it was sent. So there's, like, once you get back on the shore in Dover...
01:09:26 In the grand scheme of the operation, it has succeeded. Where you go after that, that's someone else's problem. That we have time to sort out. As far as if the Germans are going to be racing across the channel after you. Yeah. And you've also got to remember, some people are being evacuated multiple times as ships are being sunk under them. Yeah. So again, there's another account from one Lieutenant Graham Lumsden, who at this point is aboard HMS Key.
01:09:55 And Keith is sunk by the Luftwaffe. So he's then evacuated from the wreck of Keith by a tug. The tug then gets blown up by the Luftwaffe. So he ends up swimming ashore. And it turns out that ashore happens to be Dunkirk. So he's back where he started a few hours earlier. And some French naval officers find him. They take pity on him because he's covered in oil.
01:10:24 So they give him a quick shower, take all his oil sodden clothes, and then so he rocks up back at the loading point in a French naval uniform, as he said, complete with flat hat and pom pom. Completely confusing rear Admiral Wake Walker, who actually knew him, and then...
01:10:47 Wake was like, well, do you want to lift? There's a very confused French naval officer going. Yeah, this British naval lieutenant dressed as a French officer, but completely black, head to toe, with oil that's embedded itself in his skin, then gets taken back across to Dover, shows up at his wife's home, and his wife calls the police, and he's like, I'm wearing...
01:11:13 franz clothes but surely you recognize who i am and she holds up a mirror and that's when he realizes that he's literally jet black with all the oil in my head now is just this image of this person walking up to the ranking british naval officer on the scene and the first thing that happens is he has a confused look and goes and then the ranking apple on the scene says and i quote from my colleague
01:11:40 Was boy, mate, do you want to lift? It's more the fact that you've survived two ships sinking in a day. That's a significant amount of event. You're then found by your allies who may or may not speak very good English. They help clean you and provide you with a fresh set of clothes. At no point do they tell you that you are black as the night. You get back to Dunkirk.
01:12:08 He then gets to an evacuation point when an Admiral who recognises him doesn't tell him he's as black as the night. He gets on a boat. No one on that boat tells you this is the case. You get to Dover. No one there tells you. You get on a train. No one tells you there.
01:12:37 ... ... ... ... ...
01:12:59 uh resolve those matters i think if i was if i if i'd survived having two ships sunk under me in the same day i don't think my bowels would be of particular concern gentlemen shall we um perhaps move forward swiftly with speed besides this one yes do you find discussion of killer bin's bowels disturbing i find discussion of anyone foul and detailed disturbing dr clark
01:13:26 Ja, und so, aber das ist die Idee, wie wir sprechen, wie diese relativ schnellen Destroyer sind. Es gibt ein paar der größten, modernen, wie Keith, die größten Destroyer sind, aber die Blocke sind mit der Home Fleet und andersherum in der Welt. So, du bist du klassisch, in game Terms, du bist du Mid-Tier, du Icarus, du bist du Casta-Style-Destroyer. Nicht big ships. Und wie, show me an empty space on her deck.
01:13:55 Like, it's get the ship alongside, get as many people on board as possible. I assume the indicator that they'd taken on as many as they can is if someone leaned over the side, they felt the ship go. Can I just point out... If you run out of space for people to stand up on deck, then you're full. Because rather understandably, a lot of troops were not particularly keen on being trapped inside the ship that they don't know the layout of, if it happens to get sunk.
01:14:24 I'd like to point out that HMS Malcom, which after me is one of those destroyers which I've always had a bit of an affection for because it's got the same name as my uncle. So, you know, I always, sort of, was a Scott-class destroyer of the Admiralty-type destroyer leaders built during World War I. She was launched in 1919. She's the destroyer which recovers the most people. She also has another claim to fame.
01:14:52 She's the destroyer which gets the surrender of U541 on the 11th of May 1945. She serves the whole way through World War II. Her battle honours include the North Sea, Dunkirk, Atlantic, Arctic, Malta Convoys, North Africa, English Channel, Atlantic and Biscay. And I absolutely consider...
01:15:16 Die Schrappung von ihr zu sein ist eine der größten Veränderungen von historischen Vandalismus die British government hat. Denn die ganze Geschichte sie hat gesehen, als die kleine 1500 Tonnen Schott-Klasse-Destroyer-Leader. Sie hat zwei 4.7-inch guns, eine 1.3-inch AA-Gun, ein paar Pompons.
01:15:41 A signalling gun, or a 1-pounder gun, depending on how to get a couple of 20mm later on, and three 21-inch torpedo tubes. And she just basically serves throughout the war. And the things she gets involved in. But if you go and look up her history and find some pictures of her, there are almost no pictures of her involved in D-Day.
01:16:06 No pictures of her involved in Dunkirk, no pictures of her involved in those things. Most of the pictures of her are involved in various escort duty, dropping off debt charges.
01:16:18 Ja, ja. Das ist die Schiff du willst, aber das ist einfach luck. Von Horido, Leute glauben diese Geschichte. Ich glaube, du bist über die Gentleman, die nach Hause kamen, komplett kaket in oil. Die Geschichte ist normal genug und passiert genug, dass es tatsächlich so ist. No one... Du findest die Accounts. Du findest die Accounts. Du findest die Accounts. Du findest das Admirals.
Verluste und die Rolle der französischen Truppen
01:16:46
01:16:46 I could guarantee if I go look at him, he would say he picked him up. And he looked in a dastardly state, but I didn't want to say anything, because they're worried about upsetting them. They worry about, they've been through enough or anything, they don't need to tell them. They don't need to tell them. So to give you an idea of the scale of, this is just British ships, there was one cruiser, HMS Calcutta, a old World War I era warship converted for anti-aircraft purpose.
01:17:11 She doesn't spend too much time off Dunkirk, because she's the biggest ship around, so the Luftwaffe immediately go for her.
01:17:20 But she's also quite useful when she's there, because she's an AA cruiser. Exactly. And she's blasting stuff and blasting away, and actually quite useful to AA and radar. It's basically like, yes, please attack me. I am the dedicated anti-aircraft cruiser. Yeah, it wasn't me and nowhere else. It wasn't a good experience for the rooftop when they attacked her. Yeah, so there was, so Calcutta, so one cruiser, she was damaged.
01:17:49 39 Royal Navy destroyers, of which 6 were sunk and 19 damaged. 9 Sloops corvettes and gunboats, 1 sunk, 1 damaged. 36 minesweepers, 5 sunk, 7 damaged. Trawlers and drifters, 113, 17 sunk, 2 damaged. Special service vessels, 3 deployed, 1 sunk. Ocean boarding vessels, 3 deployed, 1 sunk. Torpedo boats and anti-submarine boats, which I believe is early...
01:18:17 mtb pattern boats at this point yeah well torpedo boats are going to be a mix of the french torpille years and and and british and british small craft yeah 13 deployed no lost or damaged uh for former dutch shoots schuits schuits there's got to be a dutch person in chat tell me how to pronounce that um
01:18:44 40 of those deployed, 4 sunk, unknown number damaged. Yachts with naval crew, so these are the privately owned ships that the Navy takes over completely. 26 of which 3 are sunk, they don't know how many were damaged. Personnel ships, 45 deployed, 8 sunk, 8 damaged. Hospital carriers, 8 deployed, 1 sunk, 5 damaged. But I'm not 100% sure if they were all marked correctly and if a Luftwaffe aircraft just bombed a ship they saw not.
01:19:12 not being aware that it was a medical evacuation ship. Naval motorboats, 12 deployed, 6 damaged. Tugboats, 34 deployed, 3 sunk. Other small craft, 311 deployed, 170 sunk. In total, there were British-only ships, 693, of which 226 were sunk. So it was a heavy toll.
01:19:38 ...on the evacuation force to get as many troops off the beach as they could. And, like, these troops... I've got the French lotters, if you want. By all means, please. Yeah, so this is from the French book. It says,
01:20:04 The bill was dear, but it saved, or rather brought back in total troops from Dunkirk, 338,226 personnel. It rescued the core of the British Army. Yeah.
01:20:32 Like, the 300-odd thousand British troops that get pulled off the beach go on to form the core of the British force that liberates Europe. And I mean, there's also, there's another myth of Dunkirk which circulates sometimes, which is that, you know, all the British were just there to get themselves off. It's like, no, there's over 100,000 Frenchmen who come with it as well. And again, I refer to this book because...
01:20:59 Jacques Mordal, eine der zwei Autors, war eigentlich da. Und er hat sich das. Er sagt, even after the departure of the last man of the British Expeditionary Force, the Royal Navy, exhausted as it was, continued its efforts for another two days, all for the exclusive benefit of the Soldiers of France. And that France will never forget. Yeah, because the French, what's left of that point of the 1st and 9th French Armies...
01:21:24 all the guys in the trenches around dunkirk holding the perimeter if you've ever seen chris nolan's dunkirk it's an excellent movie i do recommend it the cinematography is fantastic but a sort of i would i would hesitate to call it an easter egg but definitely a nod like in the beginning of the movie when they one of the british main characters jumps over a roadblock it's french troops manning it it's french troops fighting yeah like
01:21:52 Because of the narrative that is born in post-war about France only surviving six weeks, and that being seen as a proof that the French were cowards, it's like, no. If the French hadn't fought as hard as they had at Dunkirk, the British wouldn't have been able to evacuate like they did. And it's rather positive that they're in, like the 51st Islanders fighting alongside other French troops, which are tying up other German.
01:22:21 um formations which could otherwise have made it to uh the the front line and it gets a little bit this is the point i want a little point i want to make but it's not please note it's no critique of world warships or anything like that of this program but the fact is we're doing this discussion of operation dynamo
Operation Aerial und die Fortsetzung der Evakuierungen
01:22:39
01:22:40 How many people in the chat have heard of Operation Aerial? I have the photos, hang on. If I get the right one. Operation Aerial comes after Dynamo, and it's the evacuation from all these ports. And it evacs the further 192,000 Allied personnel from France, which 144,000 were British, but 48,000 were other Allied forces.
01:23:06 This is when the Canadians arrive. Operation Dynamo is not the end of the operation. No, yeah. This operation is because while Dunkirk is going on, there are attempts to reinforce France with additional British forces. The 1st British Armoured Division doesn't arrive in France until after the Dunkirk battles begin. Yeah. I will say this. Drac, have you done a video about Operation Aerial?
01:23:34 No, not yet. I did one back in 2021. I cannot recommend the cinematography because it was me very early on in still learning how to use things. But I did do an operation. If people want to go see a video about it, because I did it in...
01:23:52 ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
01:24:18 But look at the ranges of where you're going to evacuate the people from. Look at how far you're going. You have to use bigger ships, which are bigger targets, and take longer to load up. Some of the largest losses in World War II happen from the ships which are lost to conducting Operation Aerial.
01:24:38 Ja, genau. Das ist der Punkt, wenn die Briten versuchen zu landen freshen Truppen, um die French zu holen. Die Canadiens kommen für drei Tage. Der 1st-Canadian-Division deploys zu France. Und dann ist er sofort auf den Schiff und zurück zu den UK. Weil, auf dem Punkt, es ist ziemlich klar, dass die French-Gövernheit ist, um es zu cross-purposen mit sich selbst. Du hast die sorten Menschen, wie Paul Reynaud, wie Paul Reynaud.
01:25:05 Das war es so schnell, so schnell.
01:25:30 The Germans got to Paris, they got to the Mann in the First World War, and the French held and stopped them. One of the things that's often forgotten about the First World War with French is that people talk about the losses in terms of the numbers of people killed. What if we get a number of people who were wounded, a number of people who came back with psychological scars from the war, and the trauma from that, and the fact that French society had in many ways been devastated by World War I.
01:25:59 von der sheer bloodshed, besonders in Verdun und anderen Bereichen. Es hat einfach nur verletzt. Es hat eine psychologische Schmerz gegeben. In vielen manchen, das, coupled mit dem Fakt, dass die 1920s, 1930s, French government sah ihre eigenen armed forces als eine größere Threat zu ihnen als nichts anderes, und sie konnten nicht aufgleichen auf nichts für fünf Minuten, und sie kept changingen und switcheden, wer war Prime Minister und wer war das und wer war das.
01:26:28 Das ist das die Situation in World War II in so eine bad Situation, weil sie eine Armee haben, die, wie ich sagen würde, hat huge gaps in Material und Capability in ihrer Struktur.
01:26:56 that the Germans pierce through. It's not just piercing through them in terms of geography. Their operation is piercing through the actual material they have to be able to operate. And you can see the willingness, at least in elements of the French armed forces, to fight on initially, because you look at their big capital assets.
01:27:20 Die Forster-Raid mit Dunkirk und Strasbourg sind, für den Moment, in Merzel-Kabir, so sie nicht mehr zu tun. Aber Richelieu ist nicht technisch ziemlich komplett, aber sie senden sie her zu Dakar in Afrika. Und Jean-Bart ist absolut nicht komplett. Sie ist jetzt nicht mehr, sie ist noch nicht mehr. Sie flees, sie leas die Port sie ist, als German troops enter it, ich glaube.
01:27:49 Ja, das ist wie close sie cutt sie. Ja, weil sie initially denken, wir können eine oder zwei der Engines online bekommen. Und dann, wenn sie hear, dass die German troops sind durch die Straße, sie wissen, dass sie nicht mehr Zeit haben, so sie arbeiten und sie engagieren sie. So sie wird tot, dead, no power, aus dem Harbour. Und während sie ist unterwegs, sie versuchen, ihre Engines zu arbeiten, welche sie eventually do.
01:28:15 So she's half towed and half crawls her way out of there. So large elements of the Marine Nationale at this point were basically going, stop this, we're out of here, we're going to keep fighting from somewhere else. It's more so when the Vichy French government comes in that you start to see Vichy France particularly start to take a more hardline attitude to not getting involved. And even then, in the post-Vichy environment,
01:28:44 als es sich um die ersten Dinge die Vichy-French-Gövernung macht, ist sie zu schützen, um ihre eigenen Pickt-Gövernungs- und Kapteins- und Admirals aus zu all den verschiedenen French-Colonialen Outposts, wo Marine Nationale Units endet, um die Existenz-Gövernungen zu verabschieden, weil der Vichy-French-Gövernungs-Gövernungs-Gövernung ist absolut, dass wenn sie diese Bereiche als sie sind,
01:29:10 then most of the Marine Nationale is just going to up sticks and sail off to keep fighting, which being collaborationists, they don't want them to do that. So they end up sending replacements for both Richelieu as captain and the governor of Dakar, because they're pretty convinced if a British ship shows up at Dakar before a French Vichy plane does, that Richelieu will just lead the small fleet that's there out and sail off to Britain, and then they've lost it.
01:29:35 Can I just deal with two myths which have popped up in the chat? The first one is from Indigment. No army barring the German army, or rather bar-ish the Germans, had decent equipment at the beginning of World War II. No, the Germans didn't. Tell the Panzer 1s and 2s that ran into Matilda 2s, how that worked. We had lorries.
01:29:59 Ja, die Germans... Und bevor wir starten, der andere ist, dass Green Monsters put in, dass die French waren instrumental in der American War of Independence, und sie hatten keine Chance gegen sie bei der Zeit. Paris würde sie levelen. Ich sehe die Wizard of France approach World War II. Nein, Paris würde sie nicht levelen. Wenn die Arme nicht in die Situation es war, und die Germans hatten die Möglichkeit, Paris würde sie nicht levelen. Sie haben eine der größten Air Forces in der Welt.
01:30:26 They have one of the most capable Air Forces in the world at this point. You know, Indian to war years. They are capable of defending themselves. They are capable of doing that and stopping the leveling of Paris, etc., anything like that, by bombers. The problem they've got is that once that front that we were talking about near the beginning of the stream, we were the 10th and the 7th Armies, once that collapses, because they have no strategic reserves...
01:30:52 That allows the Germans to just fan out across France. At that point, yeah, the game's up because they physically do not have the forces to contain or stop them anymore. The best thing they can do is attrition them down at various defensive positions. But the war at that point is lost. But equally, because the Germans are so spread out, they're having to look at a purely military victory, i.e., we physically occupy this space, we force you to surrender.
01:31:21 The Germans don't have the numbers to go on a terror campaign across France at this point. I mean, there's a reason why when the treaty is concluded, you get Vichy France, because the Germans are like, well, we've got the French Atlantic coast. This is good. We've got the Channel coast. This is good. Do we really have the numbers, the logistics and the endurance to continue a campaign to take the whole of southern France and get?
01:31:50 all of France into Greater Germany and they conclude that actually it's far better for them to accept that Vichy France will continue to exist because they've got the bits they want and they also don't have the fighting strength at that stage to take the rest of it because the one thing that that big campaign has done is well
01:32:15 All surviving French troops are now concentrated in a much smaller area, which has suddenly solved their defensive problems for them. The other thing I wanted to just quickly mention, because I've got to head off in about 10 minutes, is a couple more stories from the French side of things. There's one amusing one, which is, this is all from Jacques Bordel. He says, when we were in Dover, because he was a French naval...
01:32:44 In Dover, the motor of the little motorboat Jacqueline positively refused to restart after she reached Dover. Never mind, its crew, which was three sailors from the destroyer Triomphant, set off back boldly for Dunkirk under sail alone, and this way brought off another 33 men. So yeah, that's some fighting spirit. I mean, let's face it, if you've been shot and bombed by the Luftwaffe and you reach Dover...
01:33:13 und ihr Engin packst, ihr könnt, ja, we tried. Die Machine spirit hat gesagt, du hast genug gemacht. Ja, und dann, wir haben sails, zurück wir gehen. Und dann, das ist, das ist das Personal Account, von der, der, der, der, der, der, der, der Ende der Evacuation. So, er sagt, es war scarcely hoped to continue the evacuation as late as the night of June 3rd. The enemy was already nearing the inner defenses of Dunkirk.
01:33:39 Admiral Abriel was burning his code. So he's the French Admiral who was in charge of the Northern Area of France. But from Dover, the British and French were preparing one final coup in force. When Admiral Abriel left his headquarters in Bastion 32 to view the last embarkations from on board an MTB, a tremendous activity was taking place in the harbour of Dunkirk. For the moment, the sky was clear of enemy aircraft, but the furor of the land battle was increasing minute by minute.
Dramatische Szenen und Anekdoten der Evakuierung
01:34:05
01:34:05 In an uproar of sirens, torpedo boats and destroyers maneuvered in at full speed, went alongside, took on their loads without making fast, and then backed away in a brief few minutes, crossing past each other and shearing off in whirlpools. The final miracle of Dunkirk is that there were not more collisions that night. Only one serious collision occurred, and even then, thanks to the fog, the ship succeeded in getting away to sea.
01:34:31 Und dann sagt er,
01:34:58 Emile Deschamps went down in a few seconds, taking with her a great many of our sailors, as well as a number of survivors from Jaguar. But, as in all tragedies, this event had its lighter side. After I'd surfaced and recovered my breath, I heard myself being hailed by Delaporte de Vaux with, hello, hello, let's start singing. And then he began singing the Song of Departure, Le Chant du Depart, which is one of our most famous military marches. I was then picked up by the British schloop Albrey. Yeah.
01:35:27 Und so, like, the evacuation is a lot of these stories of sort of daring do and perseverance. And annoyingly, I wasn't able to get a photo of the extra breakwater that the British built by just driving trucks into the water. Because as you said at the beginning, if you've ever been to Dunkirk Beach, you can walk a surprisingly far way out.
01:35:56 before you get to a point where you're floating, basically, because it's a very shallow incline out, which is why so many of these small boats were needed, because a regular destroyer can't, I think it's about 800, 900 yards. You could almost walk to the ships, in theory, if you were strong enough to walk in channel tides.
01:36:22 Ja, in theory, in practice, no. In practice, no. Technically, it's possible to swim the Channel, and a couple people have done it. I don't recommend trying. It's very cold. Speaking from someone who goes swimming in the Channel quite regularly, it's cold. Yes, and it's also around this time, the coldest time of the year, because it's coldest in the summer, weirdly. There's a few interesting incidents as well, where some of the small craft...
01:36:51 und dann kommen sie unter einem Ayr-Attack, so die Leute, die die kleinen Böten, in den großen Böten, in den großen Böten, in den großen Böten, in den großen Böten, in den großen Böten, in den großen Böten, in den großen Böten, in den großen Böten, in den großen Böten, in den großen Böten, in den großen Böten, in den großen Böten, in den großen Böten, in den großen Böten, in den großen Böten, in den großen Böten, in den großen Böten, in den großen Böten, in den großen Böten, in den großen Böten.
01:37:17 And then some of the troops find them. So some of the boats actually show up at Dover, having been written off as lost to German air attack, crewed entirely by a bunch of rather adventurous soldiers who between them managed to figure out which way is forward. Yes, it's like one of us used to go boating on a lake. Close enough. Hey, that's all the skills you need. Yeah.
Militärische Aspekte und Anekdoten zum Frankreichfeldzug
01:37:44
01:37:44 Just going across the channel, it's a rather large river crossing by definition. Yes, if you're the... A little bit choppy. If you're the Oberkommander de Verma, then yes, the channel's just a very big river. Also, technically D-Day is underclassification because it's a shore-to-shore manoeuvre, it's a river crossing, not an amphibious operation.
01:38:04 So, Drag, I guess we'll let you get going then, so you can go hit people with swords. You have to go whack people, don't you? Yes. Enjoy. Don't get your back, kid. No. Take care. I need you for working back later this year. Yes. Absolutely.
01:38:28 It's weird I can call the Chieftain my colleague, but yes, the Chieftain has done videos about the fall of France, particularly some of the redoubts and holdouts, if I can find it. Like the fighting around Lille and Ghent and Arras, where limited Allied forces attempt to delay and push back German forces. I keep having this idea of inviting him and Paul Woodidge to go with me and...
01:38:57 Maybe get Drak and Garius the Brit involved in it as well. And us do a walking tour of the Collapse. And why it all happened. Because I think between the five of us and all the sources and all the things we've read. It would be a very entertaining series of videos. So you would walk from Sedan to Arras to Calais to Dunkirk? Yes. And basically as we were walking sort of maybe camping. Maybe staying in nice comfortable hotels or something at the night.
01:39:27 walk the route, as the German Army Infantry did. Yes, yes. If you're in the 17th Infantry Division, you walked to the coast. This is why when people say the German Army was advanced, no. Their infantry are literally using horse-drawn carts and are walking. There's a reason why... They have a good press department, they don't have a good supply department.
01:39:54 I mean, it is a meme that is popular, but there is that meme from Band of Brothers where it says the supposedly mechanized army when an actual mechanized army arrives in Europe. And it's that image of the bloke hanging out the truck saying, say hello to Ford and General F-ing Motors. Yeah, exactly. But no, in situations like that where the...
01:40:18 Und da gibt es ein paar lustige Anecdotes. Ich denke, es war Rommel, die 7th Panzer, kommt über eine French Stadt, das hat eine petrol station. So, sie sind einfach ihre Tanks, 38 T's, Czech Tanks, weil die 7th Panzer hatte 38 und 35 T's. Und sie haben nicht mehr genug Tanks selbst für ihre eigene Armee. Und so, sie sind einfach, die Tank pulls up zu der fuel station, fills up.
01:40:44 Next one. And a French police officer with the biggest balls you can think of walks up to a Panzer Battalion Commander and goes, are you going to pay for that? It's like, you're taking the, like, you need to pay for that. And so I think it was the Battalion Commander genuinely wrote an IOU from the 7th Panzer Division.
01:41:08 I owe you a Townsworth of petrol, signed 7th Panzer Division. And Rommel honoured it. Rommel got funds from the OKW to pay this French petrol station owner for the fact they took all his petrol. Oh, I'm sorry. They probably honoured it for the schutzpah of it, let's be honest. The hutzpah of that. You know, you have to honour that. Yeah, it's like...
01:41:36 I am sorry, Midgier. I am going to have to arrest your Panzers. Now, don't do anything foolish, otherwise I will use all the methods at my disposal, including my armor-piercing Frumption. And so, but like, that's the kind of, like, it's often talked about when the Allies are coming back the other way, when you have, like, the Red Ball Express, where, like, the Allies advance so quickly they outrun their own...
01:42:02 own supply lines, when they have the US industrial capacity at their back, the British Army's industrial capacity at their back, and they can't get enough stuff to the front line because they're advancing so quickly. And then the Germans coming the other way, they're like, as we said, if this...
01:42:23 If the breakthrough at Sedan hadn't happened, if it had been World War I fought again, the Germans would have run out of ammunition in about August of 1941. And they would have run out of steam before that, in terms of probably will to fight. Because there was an understanding amongst the high command that if they fail in France, there is no Russian campaign.
01:42:50 There is no achieving the goals of the state as laid out by the party. And at that point...
01:43:00 Ja. Also, ich würde sagen, auf der Ammunition-Front, August ist ein Kind-of... eine Generös-Estimation. Das war die Estimation, dass sie keine Offensive-Operationen hatten, zwischen dem Fronten in June 1940 und der Inevitable Allied-Viktorie in etwa dem Autumn 1941.
01:43:25 Yes, also based on basically the idea that the usage would keep roughly static. And it's a case of the Allies aren't supposed to be doing much in that scenario. And the other thing you always have to remember, it's an interesting one when you start looking at these stats, is where they expect the collapse to come from and where they expect the problems to start arriving if they do get caught in such a scenario.
01:43:55 As we talked about earlier, if the French had managed to have good enough communications between their commands, let alone between their divisions and their brigades and their regiments, and all those things actually coordinate, able to coordinate with each other by a decent radio system, which I will forever think, and I'll be surprised, the fact that the sheer number of French politicians who survived World War II and who are not...
01:44:21 hung, drawn, and quartered, or tarred and feathered by the French people, because all the French army really needed to do, they had the fighting spirit, they had the morale, they had the tanks, etc., and equipment, if they actually were capable of using them. What's the fricking communication gear to actually coordinate with each other? They were a World War II army in so many ways, and yet they were almost a pre-World War I army in terms of their communications. I mean, I've often said, and this is a great way to describe it,
01:44:50 dass, wenn die French vier Wochen gegründet haben, sie könnten eine Sledgehammer auf das Encirclement haben und schattet es. Sie hatten vier Wochen. Sie hatten vier Wochen. Sie hatten vier Wochen. Sie hatten vier Wochen. Sie hatten vier Wochen. Sie hatten vier Wochen. Sie hatten vier Wochen. Sie hatten vier Wochen. Sie hatten vier Wochen. Sie hatten vier Wochen. Sie hatten vier Wochen. Sie hatten vier Wochen. Sie hatten vier Wochen. Sie hatten vier Wochen. Sie hatten vier Wochen. Sie hatten vier Wochen.
01:45:18 Two hours from Sedan's bridgehead after the Panzers had left. Yeah. And because the communications were so inconsistent and elements of the French division that had been defending Sedan were still falling back, that was just enough confusion to convince the French general commanding the counterattack to call it off.
01:45:41 Das ist wie close es kam. Und wenn sie sich rollen voran, würden wir sprechen über eine sehr, sehr short World War II in Europa. Ja. Initially, yes, wenn die French sind unter der impression, dass es ein Redoubt ist. Das ist warum die French lose ein paar oil tankers.
01:46:03 in their evacuation efforts, because they're bringing ammunition in, they're bringing fuel in, predominantly for the French forces, because that's what they have access to further along the French coast, and also because it's the French troops that are doing the bulk of the active fighting at the time at the front. British artillery is firing in support, but British infantry units aren't really fighting, so...
01:46:28 So, had the situation been different, then potentially, yes, the British would have been bringing in supplies, but Dunkirk is a decent-sized port, but to try and support 350-odd thousand troops just out of Dunkirk isn't particularly viable. No. You would have had to build up supplies to launch a counterattack to relink with the rest of the French forces, if nothing else, to free up the coastal rail lines.
01:46:56 Es ist ein World War I Timeline wieder. Es ist Monate und Sie haben Hours und Tage. Ja. Ja. So, ja, die French do bring supplies in, die British do nicht wirklich. Especially wenn es ein clear und obvious ist, um... Let me see if I can find the numbers, because, like, the amount of stuff that the British leave behind... It's silly. ...is...
Verluste der British Expeditionary Force und strategische Überlegungen
01:47:24
01:47:24 like while killer bin's looking for that i will point out quickly that dunkirk as a redoubt could be done because it was done by the germans yes they do hold it yeah dunkirk holds until the end of the war as a redoubt so it could have been done but the will wasn't there and also
01:47:50 The preparation hadn't been done prior to it. If you're going to have it be a thing that you're going to do, you've got to prep for it. Like the Germans did. Like the Germans had this whole redoubt scheme planned out before the Allied invasions landed. It was something that they planned to do. They stockpiled for it. They prepared for it. It's why the redoubts hold. So during the entire campaign...
01:48:11 from May 10 to June 22. The British Expeditionary Force suffered 68,000 casualties, 3,500 killed, 13,053 wounded, the rest were captured.
01:48:26 Es resulted in the loss of 2,472 artillery guns, 20,000 motorcycles, 65,000 other vehicles, 416,000 long tons of stores, 75,000 tons of ammunition, 162,000 tons of fuel, and about 440 tanks.
01:48:47 That's just the British losses. And it's like, a large part of the German force that goes into Russia in 1941 is riding in Citroëns. Because they can't build enough Opel Blitz lorries, they're just taking whatever they've captured from the French and the British. There are British A9 cruiser tanks invading the Soviet Union in 1941. Yeah. The Nazis are not in a position to...
01:49:14 not use the armour they get in this period. It's only during the invasion of Russia that they actually get such a glut of captured armour that a lot of it is actually spared to go to the Smelters in Germany. That is the only period in the war where they acquire enough armour that they don't really know what to do with it and they send it back to the Smelters. Yes, and as El Frittini puts out, there's a whole part of the Wehrmacht whose entire job is to organise captured equipment.
01:49:43 But being German, it's the second standard rifle that the British have in the First World War. Oh, what's it called? The American-produced one. The Ross rifle, you mean? No, no, no. It was the Pattern 13. The 1914 Pattern 14 rifle. Yes, the Americans use it as the 1917 Enfield. We have some that get captured.
01:50:12 They get given their name in the German Order of Ordnance. They then capture the same rifles from Estonia and give them another name. And then they capture them in Russia and give them another name. Oh, Germany, don't... It's not just Rifle P-14. It's Rifle P-14, England. Rifle P-14, Lithuania. Rifle P-14, Russia.
01:50:42 It's the same thing with interchangeable parts. Okay, all right, all right. Before we get too impressed by the Germans and their naming bureaucracy, I'm going to answer the question of where were the British monitors. In the case of HMS Terra, they only only have the two Erebus-class monitors at the beginning of World War II because of...
01:51:01 HMS Terra is in Singapore and undergoing refit and working out there and HMS Erebus is in the Mediterranean and they've been positioned there because as I often remind people in January 1939 the British and the Japanese are pointing guns at each other in terms of the Royal Navy and the IJ in a place called Qingdao or Singtao at that time over the SS St Vincent de Paul
01:51:28 A British flagged merchant steamer. They'd also been pointing guns at each other in November 1938 and January 1938. And they'd be pointing guns at each other again in January 1940. So for some reason the Royal Navy, in terms of their war planning, were going Germany's a rising threat as of 1936. They are 35, 36. Italy's a definite threat. Japan is a very big threat.
01:51:54 So a lot of the British, the Royal Navy's equipment, especially the slower stuff, which they need for amphibious operations, has found its way out to the Far East somehow. In case they need it for a war and they need it quickly out there.
01:52:08 Und das ist ein Problem, das ist, dass sie dann alles zurückkehren, die in Europa und die Meditator-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien-Therlinien
01:52:33 Royal Navy bombardment efforts around the pocket. It's mainly focused on evacuation. It's why the Royal Navy is devoting a good number of destroyers force. Not generally its most modern ships. It's the older pattern. It's the standards and World War I.
01:52:54 uh era ships they're like even the the one cruiser that's present is a world war one era vessel admittedly heavily rebuilt she's she's refitted she's rebuilt but it's not like like as we said before a drag hat today was like the french are planning to use two other older battleships to blast a breakout there are thoughts to deploy a revenge class to support these efforts
01:53:20 But because the situation is so fluid and it so quickly is determined to be an evacuation, especially when it becomes more clear that France politically is likely to capitulate, then it becomes that we need everything to defend the UK because we don't know how... The Navy was fairly confident they could repel an invasion. Yes. The Air Force, at the moment, while this is going on, they're putting what they can over the skies of northern France.
01:53:48 ... ... ... ...
01:54:12 Even before all the special training, the Luftwaffe has proven itself capable of attacking ships in the Channel and sinking warships maneuvering at speed. So the Navy will throw itself at an invasion fleet, air cover or not. Because at the end of the day, that is what the Royal Navy is for. To stop a hostile force landing on British shores. If that means they have to sacrifice half the fleet to do it, they'll be willing to do it.
Britische Entschlossenheit und strategische Fehler
01:54:38
01:54:38 Yes, they will. They were prepared for all those things. And that's one of the interesting things. MacGyver's come in with, would Britain have sued for peace if more of the BAF had been captured? Well, originally they were expecting to just get 45,000 back from there. So the fact they get 338,000 is there's got to be a lot less back. It's got to be a lot less than the 45,000 figure. And even then, I don't think they sued for peace because...
01:55:02 Again, one of the things people start to get is you're not talking about Britain as Britain at this point. You're talking about Britain as the British Empire. And it sounds terrible, but the BEF, the forces lost, whilst they're mobilizing up and bringing all forces up from elsewhere, there is a lot of other troops they can bring in. There is a lot of other forces they will bring in and they can keep bringing in. And also, politely, even if the BEF and all the forces there are wiped out to a man, then let's say all the forces in operation...
01:55:31 Agile, sorry, Ariel, are wiped out to a man. Let's say that no British troops get away from France. That still doesn't change the calculus. Because quite frankly, the British know what they're dealing with now. Any piece will just be the Germans rearming for round two. Yeah. So, no. The British have no faith in the German word. They have no faith in it. And they have no belief.
01:55:58 Oh, Gott. Panzerschreck, no. We've already explained that. That's not the case. Yeah, basically, that directive basically says, no, let's bomb them from the air into the submission and save our troops. Also, we can't logistically support this force anymore, so let's bomb them. It's not, we want peace.
01:56:22 That's not how Hitler wants peace. Especially because after France falls, Hitler makes a speech where he claims he's offering peace to Britain. But if you've actually ever read the transcript of that speech, there's not a peace proposal in it. He just rambles for 45 minutes.
01:56:44 Oh, it makes some of the speeches we get from modern politicians look almost moderately coherent, but still it doesn't offer anything like a peace proposal. Yeah, and also at the end of the day, who's the man in charge of Britain at this point? Winston Churchill. Churchill's not going to surrender. And the thing is... On a personal level, he would have shot anyone in the cabinet if they'd actually tried. I have seen people repose all these mythical groups who would take over in the UK and it would force Churchill out.
01:57:14 And the fact is, we went through some very dark times, even worse times than almost losing the BAF in World War II, and they never managed to do anything. Yeah, I would also point out that all of these myths surrounding other leaders of the UK making peace, I've looked into it. I'll address the most common one, Lord Halifax. The only thing Lord Halifax was in favour of was hearing what the peace proposals would be.
01:57:41 He was not in favour of surrender, and he most certainly was not in favour of accepting them if they weren't anything other than a return to status quo 1939. Halifax is abundantly clear. If the peace treaty that the Germans offered wasn't a return to the way things were on July 31st 1939, Britain was not even going to consider it. Which is kind of a hardline definition, and that's probably the most...
01:58:09 Prominent one they could pick for. The other normal one is usually something about the former king of England being returned to position after having lost his throne, the gentleman who decided to marry Mrs. Wallace. Sadly enough for him, I'm fairly certain if he looked like he was even thinking about doing that, he'd have had a nasty accident.
01:58:35 Das ist immer wie die British deal mit Errant Royalen. Ja, und du besser glaubst, dass seine Bruder sein würde auf das sein, weil nicht nur King George VI war, er hat ihn nicht gewonnen, aber er hat ihn mit einer guten Gresse und Wichtigkeit, aber er disliked seine Bruder, A, für seine Pro-German stance, und B, für den Weg in die er hat, er hat ihn ausgesucht und waltzend auf in die Sonne.
01:59:03 Yeah, he lost all protections of that family he could have had. Even Chamberlain, obviously Chamberlain gets a bad rap because of the Munich Agreement and peace in our time, but it's him who declares war. When the chips were down and the situation demanded it, even Chamberlain was like, nope, that's it, this is war now. And the reason Chamberlain had been playing for time is because, in nicest way, in 1932, when they removed the 10-year rule...
01:59:32 um they go and slow on it until 1937 so he knew that the armed forces weren't ready and this is one of the things churchill and all the others are just as guilty as they've all been cutting the armed forces for the last 20 odd years because it was going to be peace and now they're all going uh we're all playing basically playing for time to rearm because we haven't done it yeah because and here's the thing as well with chamberlain chamberlain didn't have the measure
02:00:00 of Adolf Hitler as a man before meeting him in Munich. After Munich, he had the measure of the man and knew instantly that if he broke Munich, there was no dealing with him. If he took after Munich, that was it. And the line had to be drawn, no matter how ready Britain and France were. Chamberlain was a very competent Chancellor of the Exchequer. One of the better ones, especially coming out of the Great Depression and all that. Britain gets out of the Great Depression fairly well and quite quickly relative to a lot of other countries.
02:00:29 A lot of that is during his time as Chancellor of the Exchequer. So you can put him in the position of he is the man who had British war planning gone as it had planned and not this sudden rush to war. Britain was already outspending Germany sustainably on defence by the time war breaks out. It's under Chamberlain's government that the hurricane, the requirement for the hurricane is put out.
02:00:57 The requirement for the Spitfire is put out. A large bulk of the modern Royal Navy that goes on to fight World War II is approved under Chamberlain's time as Premier. And the French as well. And he even raises taxes to pay for military spending. There's a speech of him where he's basically going like, hey, this is the situation. I'd love a Chancellor to do this today, frankly.
02:01:21 Where he's basically going like, this tax is going to go up so we can pay for this. But we're also going to make this allowance a bit better so that it doesn't hurt people at the lower end financially. And so a lot of this stuff, like, how do I understand it? Britain was planning for a rational war against an irrational opponent. Yep. Yeah. And they realised they were doing it late, but also there's a lot of...
02:01:49 One of the things you have to remember is that the problem with World War II, and to an extent the problem we have, is that a lot of it's still in recent memory. And the trouble is people remember what was in the press at the time. They remember the shortened version of history, not the long form of history, not the stuff that's written behind the scenario. And for Chamberlain, yeah, I don't have...
02:02:13 all that as much time for others as from as it does but this is also i do admit he is spending the money and he is doing the stuff that you need to do and it's like a lot of the programs which are marketed and in terms of popular history like the flag class they're a war emergency program they're not the design is confirmed in 1938 they've all they've ordered the first batch it about halfway through 1939 months before war begins
02:02:39 It's the same with the Hunt-Class Escort Destroyers. It's the same with so many of these things, which are these war emergency ships. They're already laid down. They're already under construction when war begins. They're not war emergency ships. War adds emergency to their construction. It adds speed to their construction. But they were ordered before war began. But they were presuming that war was going to be 1942.
02:03:05 Das war die Trouble. Das war die Spenden requirement they put on the Armed Forces. Das war, wenn die 10-Year-Rule ends in 1932, werden sie nicht erwartet until 1942. Ja, Legios, Sie sind right. Wir können Hitler als Irrational sein, aber die German High Command waren als Rational-Fighters, das ist warum so viele von ihnen opposed den Plan.
02:03:27 Ja. Der Plan zu breit durch Sudan ist nicht ein Plan, das hat eine Unanimous Unterstützung in der Wehrmacht. Aber ich würde sagen, dass da viele Post-War sind, dass es all Hitler's fault ist. Es gibt viele Post-War, all die bad stuff war Churchill's fault, all the good stuff was my idea. Das ist das Ding, das geht in den historischen books.
02:03:52 Yes, they are not as universally against these things as they might like to make out. Some of them were definitely not. Once we started looking into sources later on and trying to look at their accounts they published and the actual records that survived, you sort of go, these two things are not like each other. No, if you were a German general post-war, it made a lot of sense to sanitise your memoirs.
02:04:17 Und also, you know... Completely re-writes them and re-imagine them wholesale. And of course, you know, Angle for that cushy, cushy job in NATO that they've just offered you. It's always amusing when you see mid-NATO period German generals and the branches they served under. Hang on, where did you come from? So... But yeah, so like, again, sort of wrap it up a bit since we've been going for two hours. It's like...
02:04:46 The evacuation is a stunning success for all the wrong reasons, because if one decision in a litany's worth of decisions that lead up to it had gone the other way, it wouldn't have needed to have happened.
02:05:06 Yes. Unfortunately, no. There are no codes today. Sorry, no codes. No codes, yes. And as Nobel says, American Light and Escort Carriers war emergency. The Essex's were not. No, they weren't. Basically, because you can build a Black Swan-class sloop or a Hunt-class Escort Destroyer in about a year and a bit. A war can break out, and you can order them, and they can be finished by the time the war's over.
02:05:36 Unless you're the United States, you can't order a fleet carrier and have it expected to be ready in three years.
02:05:44 Obviously, we could probably do an entire episode on why the Implacables take so long to build. Well, the Implacables aren't like... Oh, wait, hang on. Did you say like the fleet carriers? The fleet carriers. Why do they take so long to build, as I've discussed before, because Churchill has a bright idea at the beginning of the war. And this is why when someone puts in Churchill was, you know, I think it's bad jokes. I can't remember his name. Yes. Bad jokes. Look.
02:06:11 Churchill ist der beste und der worste Option für Wartime leaders of Britain, denn da sind wirklich nicht so großartig. Aber der Mann hat in der Admiralty in World War II mit seiner World War I-Mindset, presumed der Royal Navy nicht zu bauen, einen kleinen Escort, und es dauert viel zu erklären, dass er was. Und bei der Zeit er war, er hat Probleme, um Menschen auf Kapitel, Schiff, Kruisers und Carrier-Construktionen zu versuchen, zu gehen zu escorts. Und dann, bei der Zeit er wurde, er wurde von Yarlton retrain.
02:06:39 He then needed to move back. And that caused huge amounts of delays and issues. And then you're trying to get the stuff through while being bombed, while trying to concentrate on getting the stuff you can out quickly because you think the war's going to be short. Because at first point he's going, well, the war's only going to be two years. So anything which takes longer than two years, we don't do. We concentrate on the stuff we can get out in the time. And then you finally get around to the implacables. And you sit there and go.
02:07:02 Oh my lord. It cost about two years. Yeah. Because a lot of what is needed to be built is to rebuild the army. Yeah, it's also mostly down to Winston Churchill making that fricking decision. It's literally, and he does it. Do you know what also he does, by the way? This is the most fun one. Why I spend, and I spend a lot of time having this argument with people going, but the British define the Scharnhorst class as battle cruisers.
02:07:30 No, the Royal Navy didn't play their battlecruise. They were for fast battleships. And that was the reason why they were building the King George Vs as part of the reason. And then Churchill comes in and goes, well, no, I'm going to call them battlecruisers. Then we've got enough. And then I can justify pausing the King George Vs. That is literally what happens. They are reclassified as battlecruisers. So Winston Churchill...
Personalentscheidungen und alliierte Zusammenarbeit
02:07:51
02:07:51 Und also politely, what 11-inch guns? They are some of the finest guns of the 11-12-inch calibre ever built. Yes, so to answer Nomad's question, the Royal Navy officer commanding Dynamo is Bertram Ramsey.
02:08:20 Er hat die Jahre vorgebracht, wurde zurückgebracht in den Colors, und er geht weiter zu sein, um die D-Day zu sein, weil er die meisten Erfahrung hat, nach der anderen Seite zu gehen. Er hat die große Erfahrung gemacht. Der große Kampf in World War II ist zwischen ihm und einem gentleman, Mountbatten, der wird die Boss von...
02:08:47 ...of planning for D-Day, and it's kind of a sort of known fact that the whole DF of the Fiasco is Mountbatten's failed attempt to take control from Ramsay. Yes. And so, yeah, Ramsay is killed in a plane crash in 1944. The British officer commanding on the Dunkirk side is Captain at the time, William Tennant.
02:09:12 whose reward for doing so good at Dunkirk is command of the battlecruiser Repulse. Yes. Which he commands right up until her loss as part of 4Z.
02:09:25 And he survives the war and finishes, he also gets involved in D-Day planning. He's involved in setting up the Mulberry Harbours and the Pluto Pipeline. Pluto is my favourite acronym because Pluto is, it's a code word and also exactly what it is. Pipeline under the ocean.
02:09:48 It didn't really work. It leaked a lot. Yeah. It's one of those things of when you listen to it, you sort of go, all right. Yes. Did you come up with the acronym first? Or did you come up with the name?
02:10:09 I would like to point out that I, of course, do not think about this when I'm talking about the Society and Historical Institute for the Preservation of Ships, Heritage, Its Appreciation, Pursuit and Exploration, aka Ship Shape. Hello, we are Ship Shape. We are two members of Ship Shape. Drack and also Blombo. To also mention the French commander.
02:10:31 Admiral Abriel, who, following the French surrender, does take up a position in the Vichy government. He serves as Governor General of Algeria. At the end of the war, he is tried by the restored French Republic as a collaborator. And he does serve, well, he is sentenced to 10 years hard labour, but he's released early.
02:10:57 So, just to give you an idea of what happens to the men on both sides. And obviously, you've got guys like Hermann Göring, where we all know how he ended up. And Gerd von Rundstedt, who I think kills himself, if I remember correctly. No, he doesn't. I have to say, what is your name, Bob, who's put in, if it wasn't for the Americans, the British would have lost the war. Define the war.
02:11:25 Ich habe gesagt, wir würden es nicht gewonnen haben, aber wir würden es nicht gewonnen haben, weil ich glaube, das Scenario endet, mit den Nukleerbomben drobten von den Briten auf Deutschland.
02:11:35 Und wenn die Krieg, die Amerikaner kommen mit dem Geld und die Projekte, sehr schnell die Programme und die Amerikaner haben viele gute Ideen in der Nutzung, aber es ist sehr gut, die British und die Amerikaner Forschung sind, um die Manhattan Project zu bekommen, wo es ist. Die Briten waren weit genug, dass wenn die Krieg weitergeht, wenn die Krieg weitergeht, sie würden wahrscheinlich mit einem workable, vielleicht nicht so effektiv, aber ein workable device.
02:12:04 und es würde sich wohl nicht beendet werden. Es würde sich wohl nicht beendet werden. Und das war in Europa würde sich wohl enden. Und ich will pointe out, dass bei der Zeit das passiert, in diesem Konflikt, man würde sich wohl schon eine Form von Anglo-French landen in Sicilien an das Zeitpunkt haben. Und die Russen würden wahrscheinlich horrifically, slowly, grinding der Weg westward mit British Lend-Lease.
02:12:32 just keeping them grinding westwards at a snail's pace. The Germans weren't farther along than the Brits in the nuclear program. They weren't. The German, it's actually, one of the problems is that it seems to me, if you look at some of the things that are affecting the German production, it's almost like their own scientists are working against their government. Some of the assumptions they're going for and the problems they're creating. Their program is closer to reactors than bombs, if I remember correctly. Yeah.
02:13:00 And also, you know, there's the whole thing that they are so wrapped up in their racial bigotry and racial theory that it is meaningfully impacting the atomic program. Yeah. And also, like, Britain's, like, when France falls after Dunkirk, Britain's plan is basically hold on until the Germans do something stupid. And then they do two really stupid things within six months.
02:13:26 They invade the Soviet Union and declare war on the United States The United States does not declare war on Germany Germany declares war on the United States
02:13:37 Und ihr habt zu erinnern, dass das passiert ist, dass Hitler glaubt, dass great powers nicht in den Krieg war, sondern in den Krieg war. Und auch, wir haben einfach gesehen, Japan absolut go wild at Pearl Harbor und sweep across South Pacific. So, far as he war concerned, sie waren replicating in den Pacific, was er hat in Europa und Russland gemacht. Und so, basically, Hitler's mind war, oh, wir sind gewinnen. Right, okay.
02:14:01 Did Dynamo help with recruitment of Americans? You do have what become the Eagle Squadrons, but most of those pilots volunteer when war breaks out, rather than... It's more Britons presenting itself during the Battle of Britain that helps with regards to American public opinion than the Fall of France, because pretty much everyone was like...
02:14:29 France is the most powerful army in Europe. They'll be fine. And then it's not fine. And you have to... The other thing is also is... Sadly enough for it is Mirzal-Kabir. Although it was supposed to be an evacuation of the French Navy to the Caribbean. That's what the British hoped for. Because the British hoped they would evacuate to the Caribbean and then the British would find a way to get them to come back in on their side. That was what they hoped for.
02:14:55 But it was the thing of the firm line apparently taken had a significant impression on Roosevelt, which overwhelmed what his own ambassador to Britain, Mr. Kennedy, was telling him. Because Mr. Kennedy was telling him that it was over and that the rise of the dictatorships was here and that soon there would probably need to be a firm party in America and all sorts of things. Not the Kennedy you're thinking of, his father. Delightful fellow.
02:15:22 Ja, wirklich, wirklich lustig, Gent. Ja, ich sage es so, alles, was ich liebte von den Amerikanern, er war natürlich nicht. Und ich liebte den Amerikanern sehr viel. Denn eine der funsten Dinge ist, dass die Leute denken, dass sie sich in den Krieg befinden, bevor sie sich in den Krieg befinden. Sie nicht, sie sind bereits in den Krieg.
02:15:44 Es ist eine der Dinge, dass sie eigentlich schon sehr, sehr, sehr, sehr, sehr, sehr, sehr, sehr, sehr, sehr, sehr, sehr, sehr, sehr.
02:16:10 And the reason he does that, because they are actually at war with Germany, because then you try to control the pushing so far out into the Atlantic. And it's a case of the Americans saying they don't join the war. Yes, they don't join the war officially, but in a nicer way, there are enough supplies coming across. And that's another reason why we can say the British would hold off and would probably get the violence, because they have access to the American industrial mines. And also, even if you were to put an isolationist power in the US and say, you know, they're not going to help through morality.
02:16:40 I'm sorry, the supplying of all war material and resources to the UK is making far too much money for American corporations, for any US government, no matter how isolationist, to stop it. Yeah, that is the big problem for America when they want to go isolationist, is that companies like to sell stuff. It is probably summed up quite well by Stalin.
02:17:04 who once said that World War II was one with Soviet blood, American steel and British brains.
02:17:12 We're getting a bit off topic, and we have gone over time. The other version I heard of that, which I feel is probably more accurate knowing Stalin, is he says British stubbornness, not British brains. And I do agree with that. So I think that's probably more accurate to what he'd say than British brains. I think the British brains is remembered by someone who's being very generous to Britain on that one. I think British stubbornness is more accurate. Patton was the greatest general of the war. I would disagree, but we're getting off topic. This is something for the world of Kant, guys. Yes.
02:17:41 But I would disagree with you on that, Bob. I can think of a good number of generals I'd rather serve under. Bob. Thank you, everyone, for joining us tonight. Again, apologies for the technical issues at the start. We have gone over to make up the time for the delay. Can we stop pretending we ever actually run to time? No, of course not. We never do.
02:18:06 And we love it for that. Yes, no, no, this time the technical issue was incredibly simple and stupid, and as soon as we determine who caused it, they will be executed. Violently. Yes, so thank you, everyone. Clark, Fleet, thank you for joining us. As always, pleasure. Thank you to Drek. Have me anytime. Yes, do we know, if I can raise the attention of my colleague?
02:18:31 Do we know when the next stream is yet? Have we decided on the date? We haven't decided on the date or the topic. We just know it's in July. I don't think we got this far in the planning when we planned these last November. No. Have you thought about what you're going to do when the Chipshape crew are away in Japan? We've already been talking about plans. Yes, we have plans to host around that.
Ankündigung zukünftiger Streams und Verabschiedung
02:18:55
02:18:55 My suggestion has been that, you know, we possibly, we could do the supplying of LLMA and all the supplies which have to go on that. But it's also the invasion of Sicily. Operation Husky. Okay. Thank you. I have just had it confirmed. The next month's Armchair Admirals will be the final months of the Pacific campaign.
02:19:23 Very nice. We'll have fun with that one. We'll cover, we'll probably again cover USS Laffey as we covered during the invasion of Akinawa. We will also discuss the loss of Indianapolis.
02:19:35 Ja, das ist eine Annoying-One. Ja. Das ist eine andere-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-One-
02:19:59 So, thank you everyone for joining us. Hope you all have a pleasant evening and weekend. And for those interested, the Tournament Team League is over this weekend. Twelve mascots will be hoping their teams get them through to some good prizes. And there will also be Twitch drops and such. So, make sure to tune in for that. But from us all here, thank you everyone for joining us. And good night. Bye-bye. Take care. Toodles.